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Canadian Philatelic Expertizing Service Certificates

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Posted 01/16/2020   09:54 am  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add rogdcam to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Do they have any validity? I cannot find much info on the organization. Any info on these certificates and/or CPES would be greatly appreciated.

Thank You

Here is an example of a cert:

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Posted 01/16/2020   4:25 pm  Show Profile Check pascoe's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add pascoe to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Here's some interesting commentary over on Stamp Boards:
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtop...f=13&t=62817
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Posted 01/18/2020   08:12 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add funcitypapa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Strikes me as fitting in the same category as Miller certificates
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Posted 01/18/2020   08:53 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Many thanks gentlemen for the information. I am a bit surprised that City Stamp Montreal is offering this with that particular "certificate". I am starting into Canadian stamps and am feeling my way around. Another thing that I am trying to come to grips with is AIEP certificates. Organizations such as Greene are AIEP approved as are many other specialists but I do not understand why AIEP actually provides, for lack of a better term, their certificates to dealers that they deem acceptable. It just seems like a conflict of interest. Am I misunderstanding how this works? Greene will sign some AIEP certificates but also issues Greene certificates if I have this right? I might be overthinking this but I need to come to an understanding of what is what when it comes to the expertizing of Canadian material.
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Posted 01/19/2020   08:06 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jimjung to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The Dealer who created the CPES certificate was someone who enjoyed high quality material. It's odd that you feel his "Official" description of his stamps are not valid, whereas, you are asking someone on a chatboard to give you advice.

Of course, the AEIP certificates are known to consistently have numerous errors and some high value Auction Firms do not recognize it. Hopefully, the VGG improves itself in this area as they are being dogged by this same problem.
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Edited by jimjung - 01/19/2020 08:17 am
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Posted 01/19/2020   09:25 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
JimJung - Never said that his opinions were not valid. Not sure where you came up with that? Thank you for pointing out yourself though that the cert errors problem exists. Could you provide some examples?

Cheers!
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Posted 01/19/2020   12:07 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jimjung to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
All you need to do is go to a Canada auction website and see where it says: " ... not mentioned on certificate". It's not common but during a big Canada sale, it happens. The current Maresch Sale Lot 3914 says this:

"PENCE ISSUES. NEWFOUNDLAND 13: SIX PENCE ORANGE, unwatermarked thin paper, four large margins, very small ownership symbol on back, light corner crease UL and small thin (not mentioned in certificate) otherwise almost very fine, with 2018 Greene Cert"

The current Sparks Auction has this same note on Lots 119, 440, 453, 470, 474, 702 and 704.

The other issue is the cost. I sometimes see, at auctions, a Canada collection that has several Large Queen stamps with VGG certificates at a cost of $40 each on nice but low value stamps. But you know that the entire collection will only sell for a few hundred dollars. These are collectors who read your posts on VGG certificates.

I mean it's all good that you support the VGG, but what happens when new collectors sell their collections and find out they spent more on certificates than their entire collection was worth. That's when the CPES certificate, even though cheap, starts to look pretty good.

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Edited by jimjung - 01/19/2020 12:13 pm
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Posted 01/19/2020   12:20 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add watermark to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The buyer has the responsibility to check the material and determine what it is. Certificates are helpful and many are accurate. The examiners who provide the certificates, however, don't always get it right. A certificate is an opinion of examiners and simply a report of what is seen by them. I have had erroneous certificates come my way from various firms but so far only one has stepped up and reviewed and replaced the erroneous certification with a corrected one at no cost to me except the fee to mail it to them. The VG Greene Foundation was the firm and I believe they are the best of the certification groups. One needs to know the material one buys and be knowledgeable enough to determine the accuracy of any certification.
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Posted 01/19/2020   12:55 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I am a believer in certificates in part because they have proven their worth in producing higher sales realizations when I sell material. As far as the buyer having the ultimate responsibility that is true enough, The reality is though that as collectors build comprehensive collections that include high dollar value material they rely a great deal on certificates to validate said material and the associated value. Very few, if any, collectors are experts in all things. Heck, the folks that expertise mostly stay within their specialty lanes.

Certificates:

1) Increase buyers comfort levels which
2) Can lead to higher realizations
3) Are accepted by most auction houses by the extension process and
4) Can be used to make a purchase decision as per auction contract

Random Ramblings:

Expertizing organizations primary source of credibility is accuracy. Mistakes in opinions are a part of life. It happens in medicine and engineering as well. It behooves these organizations to strive for the highest levels of accuracy and integrity. Marketing of the larger ones such as PF and PSE does come into play. Certificates with conflicts of interest such as dealer issued certificates are, or should be, a no go for most collectors. They are for me.

Thank you to everyone for your valuable input. I have been collecting US for a long time and am well versed in the ways of the large US expertizing agencies. Now that I am going to assemble a Canada collection with equal vigor I want to get a good sense of the players in the Canada specific certification field as well as purveyors (a separate topic) of that material.

Cheers!
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Posted 03/27/2020   10:40 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Jenny100 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
My two cents worth regarding certificates and expertisation of Canadian philatelic material;

The A.I.E.P. is an association of philatelic experts who may issue philatelic opinions, statements, certificates and guarantees under their personal responsibility.

The experts who wish to issue AIEP certificates have to meet certain standards before being allowed to become a member of the AIEP. Expertising bodies like the Greene Foundation, and experts like Richard Sheryer and Richard Gratton have all qualified to carry the AIEP designation.

Regarding the CPES. This is a expertising body created by a stamp dealer who also sells stamps. I personally feel that this is a conflict of interest and therefore I would not give much credibility to CPES certificates. I also do not believe they are a member of the AIEP.

In my opinion the VG Greene Foundation is the defacto most respected philatelic certificate in the world for BNA and Canadian material. It also has some of the most respected and competent Canadian philatelic experts in the industry on it's expert committee.

A certificate is basically used to verify OG and NH and to ensure there are no hidden faults in higher value material. Many times a clean certificate will bring higher realizations at auction.

My two cents and only my opinion...

P
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Edited by Jenny100 - 03/27/2020 11:16 pm
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Posted 03/28/2020   12:12 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you Paul. Great info.
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Posted 03/28/2020   10:12 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jogil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
There are some stamps that need a certificate in order to verify whether or not they are a specific hard to identify special variety. Other stamps that are regular stamps might be submitted in order to obtain centering and condition grading. This is what appears to be the case for the OP's stamp. If possible, it is best to examine the stamp oneself. The following website mentions C.P.E.S.: www.wipstamps.com
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Edited by jogil - 03/28/2020 10:59 am
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Posted 03/30/2020   02:02 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Jenny100 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I believe WIP Stamps is owned by the same stamp dealer (Ariel Hasid) who also founded the CPES so not surprising he mentions the CPES at his WIP site. Ariel is a knowledgable dealer and has bought and sold some very high end stamps over his career. I remember watching him bid and win a Scott 30d Mint Script watermark Large Queen at a Sissons auction in 1995. He once just gave me a One Cent Mint NH Edward at a show as a gift. He is a great salesman and promoter.
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Edited by Jenny100 - 03/30/2020 02:13 am
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Posted 03/30/2020   02:04 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Jenny100 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
1
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Edited by Jenny100 - 03/30/2020 02:12 am
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Posted 03/30/2020   08:12 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add fantail to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
He also makes plenty of mistakes, and is quite generous with his own certificates.
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Posted 04/01/2020   11:36 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Jenny100 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Precisely. No dealer should ever also run an expertising business as it is a huge conflict of interest.
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