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How Do I Determine This Is "Faked" Or Altered - Us 579 Purchase Mistake

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Posted 01/18/2020   11:52 am  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add Mrita75 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hello,

I am new to collecting, enthusiastic and learning, learning, learning. I purchased what I thought to be a 579 from NYStamps, which I now understand is not reputable :( (sad). I may return this stamp for a full refund, or keep it as an example of an altered stamp so that I have references.

I understand the 579 is Rotary perf 11X10 from 1923. I used my perf gauge and it seems to be an 11X10 - so I am wondering is there is a way to tell if perfs have been cut or altered to make it seem like a 579.

The more I learn from my mistakes, that better buyer I will become. Thank you so much for your patience and help! Note: I also compared it to my 554 - which has a lot of bleed through as a Flat Plate to see if it was an altered 554 - investigating all angles.




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Edited by Mrita75 - 01/18/2020 12:01 pm

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Posted 01/18/2020   12:23 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It may very well be a 579. I asked you in another thread why you thought that it was a 579 and advised you to research the seller. I was trying to point out that when starting out and purchasing stamps sellers descriptions should not be taken at face value. I was not singling out NYStamps. I should have stated clearly that eBay feedback means very little when it comes to deciding whether or not any single seller is trustworthy.

Mrita75 - Why do you think that it is a 579?

Edit: Before you start throwing money at NYStamps you should do some research. SCF search engine is a great place to start.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/nystamps-U...AOSwPGBd8UlZ


So back to the question of why you think that the stamp is indeed a 579. This can be a great learning experience!
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Posted 01/18/2020   12:35 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mrita75 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Ok, fair - The reason I think it is a 579: because it seems to be a Rotary, perf 11X10 from 1923 - does not look like my 554 due to the back of the stamps - and also because I was using high ratings (on eBay) and large amount of positive reviews as an additional filter (99%+). But yes, this is a learning for me - now I know, that even if a dealer on eBay has a large volume of reviews and high ratings, you can never be too sure or careful...maybe I dodged a bullet on this one.

Thanks.
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Posted 01/18/2020   10:18 pm  Show Profile Check cfrphoto's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add cfrphoto to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
It may very well be a 579.


Shallow perforations on the bottom margin and filed perforation tips suggest that the perforations are fake. The bottom perforations are shallow because the person adding the perforations did not want them to cut into the design of the stamp. The top perforations also look bad, but the image is not clear enough to be helpful. Uncluttered high-resolution scans on a black or 18% neutral gray background would be helpful. It is often not a good use of time to respond to posts showing randomly oriented oblique images of stamps on distracting backgrounds or on a metric perforation gauge.
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Edited by cfrphoto - 01/18/2020 10:20 pm
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Posted 01/18/2020   10:47 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mrita75 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Well I am thankful that you responded to a post of a new collector which is obviously not a good use of anyone's time. I am definitely not on this site to waste anyone's time, and definitely would not want to be in a forum where the rules are so rigid and or only those with appropriate equipment or experience can ask questions.

I posted the stamp on the perf gauge to show how I calculated the 11X10 which is attributed to the 579 (and I wanted to answer rogdcam). The more common stamp is a perf 11 or a perf 10. I was asking for help to learn how this 11 X 10 rotary stamp would be altered. It is often not effective to use arrogance and superiority to attract new and younger collectors to this wonderful art.
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Edited by Mrita75 - 01/18/2020 11:03 pm
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Posted 01/18/2020   10:50 pm  Show Profile Check eyeonwall's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add eyeonwall to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
the perfs on the bottom definitely do not look right
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Posted 01/18/2020   11:01 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mrita75 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Eyeonwall. Ok so they took a perf 10 - possibly a #583 and extended the bottom perfs to an 11? how would they go about doing that and is it really worth a dealer's (with so much business) time. Well obviously to make more money, they probably have it down to a science. sadness.
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Posted 01/18/2020   11:05 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It would be altered by taking a coil (599), which is a perf 10 vertically rotary stamp and adding fake 11 perfs to the top and bottom margins.
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Posted 01/18/2020   11:10 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It should also be understood that the dealer selling it does not have to be the person who created it. This kind of thing has been going on for a long time, since the 1920's; it might have been done any time. Some dealers don't care, and some cannot tell the good from the bad.
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Posted 01/18/2020   11:10 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mrita75 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Oh wow Revcollector - how do they actually add perf to a stamp? that is insane - especially the top of the stamp which has a larger margin. Maybe I really don't have 20X20 vision - I cannot tell that anything was tampered with - though I do note the very short perfs on the bottom. So discouraging.

that is really helpful Rev. Thank you for your time.
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Edited by Mrita75 - 01/18/2020 11:32 pm
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Posted 01/18/2020   11:17 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Alas, yes. People do add fake perfs to stamps. The thing is not to get discouraged but to get educated. So YOU can tell when it was done. It is a skill that can certainly be learned. Here are some places to start. Plus a book, HOW TO DETECT DAMAGED, ALTERED AND REPAIRED STAMPS By Paul W. Schmid.
http://www.stampsmarter.com/Learnin...dStamps.html

http://www.philatelicfoundation.org...coil-stamps/

https://www.linns.com/news/us-stamp...e-stamp.html

https://www.hgitner.com/vPages.asp?...aked%20Coils
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Posted 01/18/2020   11:19 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mrita75 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you so much rev collector - I definitely want to learn. I will check those sites out.
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Posted 01/19/2020   01:03 am  Show Profile Check cfrphoto's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add cfrphoto to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
It is often not effective to use arrogance and superiority to attract new and younger collectors to this wonderful art.


It is more out of frustration, no arrogance intended. Years ago, collectors had nearby stamp stores could see with their own eyes a wide variety of stamps, covers, supplies, catalogs and reference books. Now, new collectors must either find nearby stamp shows or clubs to start up the learning curve. I had hoped to see more organized and coherent efforts by the American Philatelic Society (www.stamps.org) to provide more structured on-line content with links to important sites like Stamp Smarter and Post Office in Paradise. The Siegel Auctions web site has thousands of images and descriptions of better stamps and population reports of rare 20th century US stamps. Almost everything I could write about identifying Washington-Franklin stamps has already been posted on this web site, sometimes more than onec. The United States Stamp Society and the United States Classics Society have scanned their journals and placed them on the Internet where they can be searched. The Philatelic Foundation and the APS have placed newer certificates on-line. And the list philatelic sites is almost endless.

Back to the topic at hand. Rotary press stamps are wider or taller than flat plate stamps with the same design. Flat plate booklet pane stamps are slightly wider than flat plate sheet stamps, but the difference is small compared to rotary press. Rotary press plates were bent into a half circle to fit on the press cylinder stretching the design vertically or horizontally. Perforation differences were a result of perforator differences or changes related to solving a business problem While some collectors attempt to memorize Washington-Franklin stamp characteristics, it is more efficient to understand business problems facing the US Post Office and the Bureau of Engraving and Printing. Stamp quality was a major problem. Increasing demand for postal services made it necessary to improve stamp production efficiency. World War I disrupted ink supplies forcing use of offset printing to fill stamp orders.

The key books, the Max Johl set for the 20th century and the Brookman volumes for the nineteenth are available, though long out of print. The Brookman set can be downloaded from the USPCS web site. Some older classic books can be downloaded from Google. The USSS "Encyclopedia of United States Stamps and Stamp Collecting", Second Edition (2016)
Edited by Rodney A. Juell, Lynn R. Batdorf & Steven J. Rod is well worth the price at $35. USSS Members receive a discount.
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Edited by cfrphoto - 01/19/2020 01:04 am
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Posted 01/19/2020   08:36 am  Show Profile Check GeoffHa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GeoffHa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Mira - may I make a general comment? Given your obvious enthusiasm, and your interest in a range of countries, I wonder if you wouldn't find it cheaper and much more fun to keep picking up country lots, rather than diving into one of the more complicated areas of US collecting? You can always start picking out individual stamps in more specialised areas later on.

In this light, and as my contribution to your well-being, let me know if you'd like a selection of French material to rummage through.
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Posted 01/19/2020   09:23 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rwoodennickel to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Mrita75, Lots of good advice here. I would not be discouraged by making a wrong turn or two in this awesome hobby. As mentioned, the key is education. I have collected for over 40 yrs and still find that I learn something every day. This forum has been a godsend to get great advice and I appreciate everyone that contributes. Hang in there and you will find that navigating through the minefield of questionable stamps gets easier every day.
In the spirit of GeoffHa generous offer, I would like to contribute to your obvious enthusiasm as well. If you would like a large selection of early US Regular issues and US Revenues, I would be happy to send them your way.
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Thanks,
Robert
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Posted 01/19/2020   10:03 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mrita75 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you Geoff and rwood. Both of you have great advice for me and your offer is very generous.

I definitely learn multiple things a day - and much of it is by putting myself out here on the forum, it is tough at times when I feel talked down to or something comes across as snark - it makes me want to disengage. I could have chosen not to post the "579" and just patted myself on the back for a great deal - however, I had that nagging feeling so I put it out there - and I learned. In terms of all of the different online resources, and searches as someone mentioned in the thread - the experts need to remember, that we might not know what questions to even ask, or that we should have searched for something in particular - we cannot learn it all in two months time!

In terms of the US Geoff. The early stamps are the hardest for me so far (as you can tell). The reason I decided to dive into those and acquire a few is that I was of the belief that if I concentrated on identifying and comparing them I could better learn about different papers, printing methods, perfs, small nuances etc. But I realize that with my hectic life as a career woman and mom - I might need to wait on the more difficult stamps (or I will not enjoy it).

Anyhow - thanks for reading and listening. I will carry on :) and eventually find my niche. For a two month novice, I think I am doing great ;)
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