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Unitrade Numbering Error For Small Queens?

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Posted 01/18/2020   8:52 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add EMaxim to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
My Unitrade 2019 says that Scott #35 is a 1c yellow, printed at Ottawa, but it includes a Small Queen Identification Table (p.55) that says #35 is printed at Montréal (sometime up to 1888).

Also, Unitrade says that Scott #35a is a 1c orange printed at Montréal (1873-4), but the Small Queen Identification Table says that #35a was printed at Ottawa (1870-3).

What explains the apparent contradiction here?
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Posted 01/18/2020   11:04 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add archerg to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Early Small Queen printings were done in Ottawa, up to maybe mid 1872, these are referred to as First Ottawa printings by specialists. Montreal printings were done in the 1872-1888 period when printing was again moved to Ottawa (Second Ottawa printings). There are online resources available on this subject for your reading pleasure.
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Posted 01/19/2020   11:11 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add EMaxim to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Unitrade is clear about the different print locations and dates. What puzzles me is the contradiction between the listing for Scott #35 (Ottawa) and the corresponding info in Unitrade's Small Queen ID Table (Montréal). And a similar inconsistency about print location for Scott #35a.
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Posted 01/19/2020   4:17 pm  Show Profile Check gportch's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add gportch to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Anyone attempting to collect Small Queens using the catalogues as a guide is doomed to a life of frustration. There is no substitute for one of the specialist books on the subject. Here are two really good titles that should be consulted before starting a Small Queen Collection:
1) CANADA'S POSTAGE STAMPS OF THE SMALL QUEEN ERA, 1870 - 1897 by John Hillson & Ted Nixon, published by the Greene Foundation (available through Greene Foundation website)
2) THE SMALL QUEENS OF CANADA by John Hillson (second revised edition)
Forget the catalogue numbers and simply classify the stamps by their printing (i.e. 1st Ottawa, Montreal, 1888 Gazette and 2nd Ottawa). Your life will be simplified and your collection less confusing.
GJP
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Posted 01/19/2020   5:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jarnick to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Garfield has just offered the best advice you'll ever find on collecting the Small Queens.
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Posted 01/19/2020   6:00 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add wert to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Garfield has just offered the best advice you'll ever find on collecting the Small Queens.
...Correct

If Garfield told me a ping pong ball was black..I would believe him.
Wish I hand his knowledge.

Robert

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Posted 01/19/2020   9:21 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add EMaxim to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you, all. Your advice confirms the conclusion to which I'd already come after studying the Small Queen ID Table in my 2019 copy of Unitrade. By curious coincidence, this ID Table seems to have been prepared by a gentleman named Garfield Portch and is reprinted with acknowledgement from Unitrade. Perhaps that's a common name in Canada? Perhaps not.

In any case, I've found the Table extremely useful, especially since it includes the perf gauging of Kiusalas with conversion to the New Instanta gauge that Stanley Gibbons sells. I've been using what I might now call the Portch Table to sort and arrange my Small Queens as you recommend, viz., by place and time of printing, rather than by catalogue numbers. I was merely curious about the apparent numbering contradiction between the Table and Unitrade's own listing. Following your advice above, I'll simply put that issue aside for now and begin hunting for affordable copies of the volumes you mention.

Meanwhile, Garfield: Are you still comfortable with that ID Table of yours?

Eric

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Posted 01/19/2020   10:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add silviosi to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
1. In Ottawa, the original machines gauged 11.9 and 12 or combinations thereof.
2. In Montreal the main machine in use gauged 12. Then sometime in 1873, additional machines were brought into production. These gauged 11.75 x 12, 11.75 x 12.1, 11.6 x 12, 11.6 x 11.75 and 11.6 x 12.1. After these machines wore out, they were replaced by machines giving a gauge of 12.25 x 12, 12.25 x 12.25 and 12 x 12.25.
3. These machines were taken back to Ottawa and used to produce the rest of the printings, which is why all four perforations continue to be found in this period.
Another take-away from today's study is that while position dots are useful for identifying Montreal printings, most Montreal printings are not going to have them. Also, looking at the appearance of the paper surface under a loupe just might be the best characteristic to use to sort your stamps after you have got done with checking the perforations. It is a fairly objective test that will help you identify right away which stamps are likely to be second Ottawa. Then later you can use the printing impression, shades and cancellations to make a final decision.

Once you have separated out all the smooth surfaced papers, from the rough ones all the smooth ones are going to be Montreal by default. Finally, it is apparent that most, if not all of the barred grid duplex cancellations are from the Montreal period, so if you have a stamp with that type of cancellation, chances are it is a Montreal printing.

Shades: 1. Ottawa 1-st: Perforated 11.9, 11.9 x 12 and 12 x 11.9The 1c stamps in this group vary quite a bit, but are all shades or orange, yellow-orange and red-orange. There
are no yellow shades here.
2. Montreal: a)Perforated 11.6 x 11.75, 11.6 x 12 and 11.6 x 12.1 In this group we see a fair amount of yellows and a range of orange shades. This group has some very
distinct yellow shades including a very pale dull yellow and a lemon yellow shade.
b) Perf. 11.75 x 12 and 11.75 x 12.1: Most of the 1c stamps from this group are shades of yellow, with a very bright yellow being found. Orange shade on a
very thick horizontal wove paper perf. 11.75 x 12, but by and large orange shades are much less common in this group.
c) Perforated 12, 12.25 x 12, 12 x 12.25 and 12.25: Stamps of this group do not show any more deep oranges or red-orange shades, though a very small number
of yellow orange shades are found. The general shades found here are deep ochre yellow, yellow and dull yellow. There is a very pale yellow found in the
perf. 12 as well as a bright lemon yellow. The range of shades for the perf. 12.25 combinations is much more limited, being mostly deep yellows, and dull
yellows. The pale and very bright yellow found in the earlier period, does not seem to show up very often at all in this period.

3. Ottawa 2-nd : Perforated 12, 12.25 x 12, 12 x 12.25 and 12.25 x 12.25 Stamps are predominantly yellow, bright yellow and orangy yellow and occasionally yellow orange.
Gone are the ochre-yellows, dull yellows and pale bright yellows of the Montreal period. There may be a few exceptions, but generally most stamps are
just plain bright yellow with a slight orange tinge.

Hope will be clear for you. The two books mention before in small queen collection it is an MUST.

I reproduce from my own reference booklet, which combine different sources: Canadian philatelic history, Brixton and many others.
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Posted 01/20/2020   10:13 am  Show Profile Check jogil's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add jogil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The Kiusalas gauge does not account for gauge 12 and 12.25 perforations so that they are usually rounded down to 11.93 and rounded up to 12.30
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Posted 01/20/2020   1:00 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add EMaxim to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you, Silviosi. What a wealth of detailed information! I'll certainly be using all I can as I begin to form a collection Small Queens. Greatly appreciate your taking the trouble to respond in this way. Beginners can draw great profit from the knowledge that more experienced collectors have, especially in difficult areas such as this one.

And jogil: Does that mean that the Kiusalas gauge doesn't include a number that equates to 12 on the Instanta? And if so, would that mean that the Kiusalas isn't quite accurate? Or, does it mean that the Kiusalas number equates to 11.93 Instanta, which is accurate, and "perf 12" would be only an approximation?
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Posted 01/20/2020   1:08 pm  Show Profile Check gportch's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add gportch to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Eric, you ask if I am still comfortable with the table in Unitrade. The answer is generally yes but there could be a couple of tweaks needed. I have now identified 14 different perforation on the 3 cent SQ that can be specifically tied to the printing dates.I also now have (courtesy of Ted Nixon) a complete listing of all SQ printing orders. Sometime in the future I am going to attempt to tie the perforations to specific orders (but with my new work at the Greene Foundation, the project is on the back burner). I doesn't seem to matter what you publish today because the research done by other philatelists makes any article obsolete before the ink dries.
GJP
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Posted 01/20/2020   1:35 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add EMaxim to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Garfield, many thanks for responding. For me your ID Table has so far been the single most useful guide to Small Queens. Working back from the Instanta to the Kiusalas gauge number and using that to identify the place and date of printing: this has been for me the most practical method. What, however, is your opinion of the Kiusalas number in the case of SQs?

Eric
PS I'm looking for copies of both Hillson's books, but the asking prices have knocked me back.
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Posted 01/20/2020   3:09 pm  Show Profile Check jogil's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add jogil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
EMaxim: There is both a gauge 11.93 and a gauge 12.00 for both Large and Small Queens. These are each separate and different gauges. The Kiusalas gauge does not account for the exact 12.00 gauge perforation which is a very common LQ and SQ gauge. A new perforation gauge has been put together for this and other missing ones.
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Posted 01/20/2020   3:40 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add EMaxim to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I see what you mean. Here is a chart for equating Kiusalas with Instanta. It's included with Portch's SQ ID Table in Unitrade. No Kiusalas number quite equates to perf 12 in either the old or the new Instanta, though Kiusalas 66 comes closest in the new Instanta (12.01). Perf 12.25 would seemingly fall in between Kiusalas 64 and 65.
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Posted 01/20/2020   4:23 pm  Show Profile Check gportch's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add gportch to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Eric, the prices of specialized books will always be high because the production runs are so short. We don't even cover our production cost on the books published by the Greene Foundation. Remember that the book is a 'one-time' purchase and will probably pay itself back many times over. Sometimes you simply must 'bite the bullet'. You won't regret it.

I don't hold any particular opinion on the Kiusalas gauge. I have one but, being metal, find it absolutely useless for stamps on cover which is the major component of my collection. As a personal choice, I find that the Instanta gauge is the most convenient for me. If I get really serious about perforations, I am spoiled and use the VSC6000 at the Greene Foundation because it measures accurately to 0.01 millimeter (which is too precise for practical purposes).
GJP
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Posted 01/20/2020   8:29 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add silviosi to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for the appreciation. Any time I will try to help anyone.

Talking about gauge: In this matters , me personally I use the three. Why? different times, different countries, different points of views of catalogs publishers. those measurements, you can compare with shades.

Why I explain to you this. Maybe because the catalogs show you from only one point on views: narrative emissions, prices based on theirs dealers collaborators and more important thing, no one will pay for very detailed and exhaustive catalog. So, understand the catalog like Unitrade for Canadian stamps it is just a reference for narrative emissions of officials stamps, and here , they show some wasted papers which with the time come like stamps. for the moment do not go on this field.

Returning to the gauge: I use what it is more appropriate to the period. Kiusalas gauge I use for British and Commonwealth stamps, old instanta ( it is yellowish ) for stamps of pre-modern stamps and new instanta for the modern stamps. Same like for shades: old Gibbons colour guide for pre-modern and new one for the rest.

I do not know the stamp collectors if put a line between pre and modern? For me modern in Canadians stamps begins with 1964-1965, when paper change, ink change and fluorescence change..

Select your small Queens, you will find that it is a super series to collect.Do not leasing to thing like: Market is full, or those stamps do have value. It is not the true. you will find out yourself with the time.

Pleasure if I help you with some.
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