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Problem With Expertizing; #28B Example

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Posted 01/22/2020   1:17 pm  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Bart,
My original suggestion was about linking certifications in a database but the thread took a turn towards AI. In my opinion a "certification AI" would be a tool, not a panacea (and frankly not anything that I would currently recommend or advocate). But it sounds like some folks here were thinking that you would feed the stamp in a machine and when it pops out on the other end a cert is printed. At best I think a "certification AI" implementation would be only assist human eyes and provide some relief for a staff which was being overwhelmed.

On the other hand, my opinion is that there is a solution at hand for linking certs and cert revisions in a database. Obviously hobbyists would find great value in this kind of functionality. But I would like to hear feedback from those who actual do certification work on the pros and cons of reviewing/linking previous versions of a cert. Would it save time to instantly be able to find older certs for the same stamp/cover? Is there is a strong case for NOT reviewing previous certs before forming your own, independent opinion? What happens if a new opinion is made and then an older cert is found which conflicts with the new opinion? Does this currently drive a second look or more review from others?
Don
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Posted 01/22/2020   1:36 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The PF site already does that; if a stamp or cover has earlier PF certs they are listed.
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Posted 01/22/2020   1:39 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I know that when I look at an item I look at it first, then I look at any old certs that accompany the item. Most of the time it is not a problem because nothing has changed. If I think something has changed then I go from there.
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Posted 01/23/2020   06:22 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add m and m to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
i also look at the item first and form my own opinion, then at any accompanying certs. this is how I was instructed meany years ago to proceed with patients by a well respected expert.
Don a searchable linking of cert opinions from individual or multiple agency's would benefit all collectors. the task would be Herculean in both scope and cost. I also get the feeling that not all groups/individuals would cooperate for whatever reasons.
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Posted 01/23/2020   08:06 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi m and m,
The indexing of different SQL databases is not really that hard although I agree that matching and mapping the disparate fields can be a challenge. Ideally, there would be an agreed upon (and documented) database field specification that would allow for a smooth cross indexing but this is not a hard requirement. These kinds of technological challenges are the things that I live for and creative solutions are typically required. (Note that the hobby has already done this once with the Global Philatelic Library and it implementation of indexing different philatelic library databases. I disagree with and dislike the way this implementation was done but it at least it was attempted.)

But I do concur that the biggest challenge is selling the various organizations on the idea. I typically do not find it hard to generate the excitement or layout the justifications but I have neither the time or motivation to suffer fools. Now in the sunset of my career, I have the luxury of not having to chase folks around pitching ideas or solutions. People know how to contact me and I am always standing ready to help.
Don
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Posted 01/23/2020   12:37 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add m and m to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Don I appreciate both the effort and and reasoning behind your answer. That said an e-mail to the APS along with a copy of this thread (and possibly others like it) as a article might generate enough interest for a frank discussion or motivate someone with the necessary technical skills to take on this type of project. I am a relatively new member to this forum, but can both see and appreciate the value it provides. I found out about it from my brother Bart, otherwise I would still be in the dark.
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Posted 01/24/2020   12:00 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add caspian65 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
New to the site, but long time collector and think I may have been registered here in the past. After about a 7yr hiatus from collecting I got the itch again.

I don't consider myself an expert at all, but when I first opened this thread and looked at the stamp without scrolling down to read the subsequent info, the first thing that popped in my head was that it was a reperf at the top. It seemed quite obvious and I was surprised to see that a recent cert graded at 90 with no mention. Maybe it was a case where they were focused so much on giving a grade that the basics were overlooked?

It is very disturbing that we cannot trust these expert opinions.
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Posted 01/24/2020   3:58 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add alub to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Certified as mint, looks canceled to me:

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Posted 01/24/2020   4:23 pm  Show Profile Check sinclair2010's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add sinclair2010 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Probably just a little gum soaking through. Dirty stamps aren't necessarily used stamps either, perhaps undesirable, but not used.
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Posted 01/24/2020   8:30 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add BlackJack2271 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Alub. This is a faked or fraudulent PSE cert.
it has no signature, font is not stanadard PSE
font and address of PSE IN 2007 was Newport
Beach, CA and not Henderson NV. Buyer beware
as it is very faulty and reperforated.
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Posted 01/24/2020   8:45 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It comes up on their website:

http://psestamp.com/Cert/1141185/
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Posted 01/24/2020   8:46 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It is not a fake cert. The image is from the PSE website cert verification database.
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Posted 01/24/2020   8:46 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add alub to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I took the image off the PSE website.
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Posted 01/24/2020   9:12 pm  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The PSE certs on their website are generated from their database, what you see on their webpage is not a scanned image of the hard copy certification. The webpage is coded to display a generic cert border and the field names, but the individual cert data is filled in when the page displays. (In other words, the page is dynamically generated based upon which cert is being displayed.)
So yes, there are differences between the hard copy certs and the digital certs being displayed on their website.
Don
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Posted 01/24/2020   9:36 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add JLLebbert to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The image of the cert on the PSE web site does not include a signature. I also have a 2007 PSE cert with the Henderson, NV address on it. I verified that the cert was genuine. I'm wondering if perhaps these are certs that were lost/destroyed and reprinted after the PSE moved to Nevada in 2017. I tried to test this theory by examining a cert that I had reprinted a year ago. Unfortunately, the cert was initially issued in September of 2017 presumably by then the move was done, so the Henderson,NV address proved nothing.
Added: I agree with Don's analysis the generated form that you see on the PSE web site can differ from the actual certificate. I also believe that the images of reprinted certificates are likely generated in a similar manner but the reprinted cert will include a signature as well as the embossed seal.
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Edited by JLLebbert - 01/24/2020 9:59 pm
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