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Number 10 Or 11 Blue Circular Rate

 
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Valued Member

171 Posts
Posted 01/28/2020   12:18 am  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add Magguss to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Sorry my scanner is being a pain. Picture might not be clear, but it is a type I. Couple questions:
1. So I think it's a 10, just based on the fact that #11 doesn't show a 3 cent circular rate
2. Is there enough of the blue circular cancel to say it's the blue circular rate?



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Valued Member
Canada
109 Posts
Posted 01/28/2020   02:25 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add silviosi to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Seem to be 11 dull red, No 10 is orange brown.
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Valued Member
Canada
109 Posts
Posted 01/28/2020   02:33 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add silviosi to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Here certified PSE dull red
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Pillar Of The Community
2463 Posts
Posted 01/28/2020   04:32 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Quite a few cities used blue ink in the 1850s with their circular date stamps (CDS) and killers to cancel their mail, and Scott attaches a very small premium to blue cancels. The blue cancel does nothing to ID your stamp as a 10, 10A, 11, or 11A, which must be ID'd on its own merits.
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Edited by John Becker - 01/28/2020 04:34 am
Pillar Of The Community
United States
976 Posts
Posted 01/28/2020   08:23 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add chipg to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Odd use of terms.
Circular rate = the postage fee to send a circular (which was a base 1c per unsealed circular)
Circular ratestamp = a round handstamp that would have the rate number (1, 3, 10, etc) inside of it
Circular datestamp = the handstamp with the place and date of mailing. Many also included the postage rate that was either paid or unpaid

Your cover has a blue circular datestamp (fairly common in the 1851 period) and a blue circular 7-line cancellation (also somewhat common in the period.

Take a look at the Gross postal history auction at https://siegelauctions.com/sales.php?sale_no=1211 for a good variety of datestamps and cancellations used on the 1851 issue.
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171 Posts
Posted 01/28/2020   09:53 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Magguss to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Blah. You're right. Posted this late at night and was thinking it was what Scott called "3 cent circular rate for
1000-1500 miles" or something like that. Don't have it in front of me
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United States
1848 Posts
Posted 01/28/2020   11:37 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I'm sure that the quote that you are reading refers to the Postal Rate in effect from July 1, 1851 until September 30, 1852, where circulars were rated by distance.

For circulars weighing 1 ounce or less:
- Pre-paid Under 500 miles was 1c
- Pre-paid 500-1500 miles was 2c
- Pre-paid 1500-2500 miles was 3c
- Pre-paid 2500-3500 miles was 4c
- Pre-paid over 3500 miles was 5c

Effective October 1, 1852, printed matter was rated at 1c for the first 3 ounces or less.

Because this distance-based printed matter rate was only in effect for a little over a year, and not everyone used stamps yet, these multiple rate distance-based circulars are highly sought after by collectors. I ought to know, I used to "seek" them.

2c circulars are scarce items, 3c ones are quite rare. There are probably more out there that we have not identified, since they can easily be confused by a 3c stamp simply paying the normal single letter rate -- which is clearly what your cover is.

2c circulars were almost invariably paid by two 1c stamps, and are easily identified by use in period, not overweight and the towns apart by the proper distance.

I am aware of a famous 5c circular cover from the west coast. A fantastic item.
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Edited by txstamp - 01/28/2020 12:16 pm
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Posted 01/28/2020   11:43 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
So, the town distance in your case I'm sure disqualifies based upon distance - however, the more obvious question is what is this cover you posted?

Is it an envelope? Folded letter?
Is there printed matter contents in there?
There cannot be any writing in or on a circular.
If its a printed matter flier, but someone wrote on it inside, then it becomes a regular letter.

If no contents, then check for evidence that there was a seal.
Circulars had to be sent unsealed, so they could be inspected for fraud (trying to send a letter at the 1c rate)
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United States
1848 Posts
Posted 01/28/2020   12:20 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Just for general readers out there, here is an example of a nice 2c circular - distanced-based:

https://siegelauctions.com/lot_grd....ubmit=Search

Don't hold you breath looking for a 3c one. The only supposed one known to me off-hand, turned out years later, to have a seal on the back, and was, thus, eliminated.
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United States
26 Posts
Posted 01/28/2020   5:31 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Chevelle to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
In reading the OP's opening post it seems there is possibly a mixing of philatelic terminology lending to some confusion. The OP believes that the stamp on the scanned cover is "a 10, just based on the fact that #11 doesn't show a 3 cent circular rate". What? I'm not sure how an #11 does not show a 3 circular rate or what that even means.

The OP goes on to say "Is there enough of the blue circular cancel to say it's the blue circular rate?" Again: What? What is a "blue circular rate"? Never heard of a blue circular rate.

What the OP might be asking is is the stamp on the cover a Scott No. 10? And the answer is, maybe.

The cover was posted at Penn Yan, New York, October 23, 18??. Based on info from the Stampsmarter website regarding Philadelphia:

"Philadelphia struck its circular date stamp in blue until around January 1, 1854. Thus, there is a possibility (far from a certainty) that imperforate 3 stamps with a blue Philadelphia CDS are orange browns."

Could this also be projected onto other locations including Penn Yan, New York? Could be a stretch, but a blue cancel in this case might be better than a black cancel. If there are collectors of postal history from this part of New York on SCF they might shed some light on dating the usage of different cancellation colors. As noted on the Stampsmarter website the only way to confirm whether the stamp is or is not a Scott No. 10 is to plate it.



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United States
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Posted 01/28/2020   6:32 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I explained the 3c circular rate in detail, including dates, but to spell it out, the circular rate by distance coincided with the usage of #10s since both started July 1, 1851.

Of course use of orange browns faded quickly by 1852, and the circular rate mentioned lasted through September.

So its mostly meaningless if the only question is, as to stamp identification.

I would suggest to the OP that you post a high quality scan, and not a cell phone photo of the stamp if you want an identification done.
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Edited by txstamp - 01/28/2020 6:49 pm
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Posted 01/28/2020   7:49 pm  Show Profile Check sinclair2010's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add sinclair2010 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The chances that the OP's stamp is a #10 approaches zero while the chances that the stamp is a #11 from Plate 8 and used on October 23, 1856 approaches 100%.


Quote:
Based on info from the Stampsmarter website regarding Philadelphia:

"Philadelphia struck its circular date stamp in blue until around January 1, 1854. Thus, there is a possibility (far from a certainty) that imperforate 3 stamps with a blue Philadelphia CDS are orange browns."


If that is a direct quote, it could be worded a lot better. Some, and I stress some, 3c 1851's with blue Philly cancels are OB stamps.


Quote:
As noted on the Stampsmarter website the only way to confirm whether the stamp is or is not a Scott No. 10 is to plate it


Really big sigh... The vast majority of OB stamps are readily identifiable without resorting to plating.



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Posted 01/28/2020   8:16 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Could this also be projected onto other locations including Penn Yan ... might shed some light on dating the usage of different cancellation colors


Each city will have its own cancels and ink colors. Yes, a run of dated covers (from docketing or the contents) from one city can be assembled to show the sequence of cancel colors and cancel devices (and their progressive wear/damage/killers). This sequence can often then be used to narrow down the date of use of other undated covers from that same town. Data on things like ink color from one city will not apply to another city. And naturally, this should mesh well with the color/plate of the stamp.
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