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Finland Specialized Question

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Posted 02/07/2020   3:13 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add billsey to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Facit lists the 'four numbered' coat of arms issues of 1875-1884 from two printing houses, Senate and Stamp Office. I can assume anything used before 1882 or in perf 11 is Senate, but otherwise I can't figure out how to tell the difference. I'm at the stage in creating my album pages where I need to either have places for both or to lump them together. Can anyone enlighten me as to how to tell the difference between the two?
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Posted 02/07/2020   6:03 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Any assistance?
Skandinavien Frimaerkatalog 1995-1996.

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France, Metropolitan
2522 Posts
Posted 02/07/2020   6:37 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Can be confusing.Maybe a few tips.
A. Provisionl Copenhagen issue from july 1st 1875, the 32 Pen. perf.14x13½.


B. First local issue 15 July 1875 too the end of 1881 with Fixed colors perfed 11.
In this 1st serie of july 1st 1875 you have 2,5,8,20,32Pen.,1Mk.
2nd serie of 15 may 1879 & 1st sept 1881 (new postal rates) you have the 10 & 25Pen.

New machine for perforation 12½
C. 2nd local issues,end of 1881 to the end of 1884.(These come in 2 groups).
a.Printing with Fixed colors perfed 12½ ,11,or compound.
b.Printing with Alterable colors Eosin perfed 11,12½ and compound.
**The eosin tends to oxidize over time.**

Before the end of 1881 the printing was transfered from the Sénat to the Kartasigillatakontor.The Karta printers purchased in the autome of 1881 a new perforating machine for perf 12½.This would replace the perf 11 machine used until then.
The director of the new printing, a certain Mr. M. Bachoff *,introduced alterable Eosin based
colors.Also the entire set-up of the clichés were re-arranged.
The bizarre thing is at first the perforation was exclusively 12 but for some reason in this early period ,compound perfs made their apparition.Even some entire sheets perfed 11 !
It will be noted that the 25 Pen and more rarely the 5 Pen in the alterable colors are found with the perf.11. from this period.
*Mr.Bachoff the first director of the Karta printing who introduced the alterable colors proved to be so incompetent that he was replaced in 1883 by M. W. Brandstake.So it is in this early period that all the irregularities in perforation and
defects occured.


The importance of postmarks for identification is best as well as the issue date of the stamps.






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Edited by perf12 - 02/08/2020 07:58 am
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United States
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Posted 02/09/2020   10:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add billsey to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks, so I can assume anything with analine (I believe Eosin and analine are the same in this context) dies is going to be the newer varieties. But typically Eosin/Analine is only the red color. How does it affect denominations other than the 25p?
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Posted 02/10/2020   08:31 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Germania to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I don't collect Finland but I do know eosin. Stamps printed with eosin as a component of the ink will fluoresce a different color under longwave UV compared to daylight. Maybe that will be helpful.

It appears you will also need to obtain a copy of the Dansk Filatelistisk Tidsskrift indicated in the catalog footnote.
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Posted 02/10/2020   10:00 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The eosin was employed only on the 5 & 25 Pen.
The problem also is differentiating between the 5,20 & 25 Pen Karta pintings perfed 11 & the Senat printings perfed 11.

http://goscf.com/t/56564
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United States
405 Posts
Posted 02/18/2020   4:43 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add billsey to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
So I decided to punt, ignoring the late printings from Senate and the odd perf combos. I'll add them in either as a specialist topic page or inserting into the main album if I ever end up with undisputed versions. :) I've started the process of printing pages, mounting the stamps and scanning for the web. You can see them as I populate them on my site.
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Posted 02/25/2020   04:44 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Sorsh to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
do a search on karta on this forum. there was post earlier
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Posted 03/05/2020   6:07 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add billsey to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Now I have another question. On the lion stamps of 1917-1930s there are three different lion types called out for in Facit for the 1M and larger values. I believe I have types I & III figured out, but I can't find anything that looks like the description for Type II. Could someone enlighten me?
Type I

Type III
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Edited by billsey - 03/05/2020 6:12 pm
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Posted 03/06/2020   08:30 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Have you checked The wmk's & perfs ?
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Posted 03/06/2020   08:59 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add nigelc to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi billsey,

I don't know this series well at all but looking at Facit it appears that these three frame types only apply to the 1 markka value and only in the 1917-1925 set.

There is some variety in the frames in these sets so for example I have two 1½ markka stamps and these both have an A in FINLAND that looks rather like the type II frame of the 1 markka value (but I haven't checked the watermark and perforation).

As perf12 has said, checking the watermark and perf is important for these issues.
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Nigel
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Posted 03/06/2020   1:30 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add billsey to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Watermarks and perfs are all known. There are three different lion types and three different frame types. The 1917-1925 set 1 markka value include combinations of all three frame types along with the first two lion types. They are F1:L1, F2:L1, F3:L1 and F3:L2. The 1929-1930 issues include the 5 markka in L1 and L3. I have shown examples of L1 and L3 above, from the 1923 and 1929 printing respectively. I have a bunch of the early 1 markka lions, but none that seem to show the F3:L2 combination, even though there were 21,000,000 printed and it's cataloged at minimum value used. Am I just being unlucky or do I really have some L2 examples, but they aren't as distinct as the catalog suggests?
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Posted 03/06/2020   2:25 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Could you give all the Facit cat numbers of the Type II stamps?
Could you post the Facit discription that distinguishes the
lion types? just curious..
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Edited by perf12 - 03/06/2020 5:13 pm
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Posted 03/06/2020   5:20 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Agreed,
declaring lion types without explanation, is fruitless,
My Catalogue shows 7 types of the 1 Markka without (apparent) explanation.
I just gave up.
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Edited by rod222 - 03/06/2020 5:21 pm
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Posted 03/06/2020   6:07 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Just went through the Jukka Mäkipää collection.The only 2 types in his collection are the 40P stamps.I guess he does not consider the other
lion types of great importance.Mostly shades,perforations & cancels are the rarer things here.
https://www.filatelisti.fi/kokoelma...i-1917-1929/
I found this lot on e bay (closed ) where frame & lion types are indicated.The pics are small though.Perhaps helpful if one knows what they are looking for !
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/113632983157
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Edited by perf12 - 03/06/2020 6:20 pm
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Posted 03/06/2020   6:25 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add bookbndrbob to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
For the 1 Mk unwatermarked Facit says:
Type !: The lion grey body completely filled out with dots
Type II: The lion black body not completely filled with dots but with white areas

And, for the 5 Mk posthorn watermarked Facit says:
Type I: The lion grey, the body completely filled with dots
Type III: The lion white, the body very sparsely filled with dots

The illustrations are consistent with the descriptions.
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