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Cut Square Die Identification

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 14 / Views: 734Next Topic  
Valued Member
United States
15 Posts
Posted 02/08/2020   3:19 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add Priceknight to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I think this is a design U91 Scott U414. If I am correct, how in the world can the die be identified? There are apparently 8 dies and I am having difficulty finding references for how to determine whic die produced the example. Thank you!




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Pillar Of The Community
551 Posts
Posted 02/09/2020   08:39 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ThomasGalloway to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
My take is that through the process of elimination you can work it down to either Die 1 or Die 2 (circular "O" in TWO, for example, eliminates several dies).
If the die is worn, it is much more difficult to make the call. For most dealers or collectors, a worn Die 2 gets called a Die 1. And the collector will be on the lookout for a replacement.
Try holding your cut square at an acute angle looking into a light. Is there enough of the embossing detail left to discern the two locks of hair?
Die 2 follows for comparison.

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Valued Member
United States
15 Posts
Posted 02/10/2020   9:23 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Priceknight to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
My example is really worn, I can barely make out the hair using a loop. For this one, I am going to set it aside for now with your notes added. Thank you for the die 1 and die 2 clue!

I will take some better picture of other squares and post this week.
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Valued Member
United States
15 Posts
Posted 02/16/2020   01:24 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Priceknight to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply




I believe this is a U483

Should I try to clean this cut square? I have never tried to clean a stamp, let alone postal stationery: I may try to at least erase the writing on the back.

How would you rate this example in terms of condition?

To determine die 132 or die 133 I need to take some careful sub mm measurements but, I found references to the C in CENTS. Die 132 says "C is round and open" while 133 says "C is round". I cannot see a difference. What should I be looking for?

Lastly, 132 says both numerals are horizontal while 133 has both numerals sloping down and to the right but I cannot see any difference. Do you have any advice to determine slope?
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Edited by Priceknight - 02/16/2020 01:27 am
Pillar Of The Community
551 Posts
Posted 02/16/2020   07:37 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ThomasGalloway to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
"I believe this is a U483": Agreed.
"Should I try to clean this cut square?": No.
"How would you rate this example in terms of condition?": A full corner would be preferred, otherwise it is a reasonably decent cut square. If I were a cut square collector, I'd be on the lookout for an improvement.
"What should I be looking for?":


I always look at the "1" in the righthand "1 1/2". Die 133 has a distinct tilt to the right.
That should be all you need. Remember, there may be numerous working dies with very slight (if any) differences.

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Valued Member
United States
15 Posts
Posted 02/16/2020   1:58 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Priceknight to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you Thomas! I will report back on the mm measurements tonight.

In the meantime, here is a U388 with a district line of browning, will this progressively get worse over time or should it stop now that I have it in a proper storage sleeve?

Is this bowling considered toning, foxing, or something else? I suspect it happened because of acid in the previous storage binder but I am just guessing.

Internet searches have not revealed die information but I haven't looked very hard yet.



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Edited by Priceknight - 02/16/2020 2:04 pm
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Posted 02/16/2020   2:10 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Priceknight to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The same questions apply to this U407.



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Posted 02/18/2020   3:52 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ThomasGalloway to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
". . . will this progressively get worse over time or should it stop now that I have it in a proper storage sleeve?"

Once the acid source has been removed from the stationery item, and the acid that has already made it into the paper is used up, then the toning should stop.

You could then go so far as having the acid burn removed by a paper conservator. But the cost benefit ratio would be off scale :-)
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Valued Member
Canada
29 Posts
Posted 03/27/2020   12:06 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add PMStamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
This one has me baffled. As far as I can tell it is the Franklin design U92 on manila paper. Based on the large U and close spacing of the NT it appears to be a Die 2. However, based on the Scott Specialized catalog there is no Die 2 for either manila or oriental buff. What have I got here?
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Posted 03/27/2020   12:08 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
3rd class style cancel from New Brunswick. Almost certainly from a wrapper, W425.
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Edited by John Becker - 03/27/2020 12:11 pm
Valued Member
Canada
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Posted 03/27/2020   12:25 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add PMStamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
So does that make it a Die 1 even though it has Die 2 characteristics?
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551 Posts
Posted 03/28/2020   08:35 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ThomasGalloway to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The "UNITED" in Die 1 is closer to the inner circle than the outer circle. For Die 2, "UNITED" is closer to the mid-point of the two circles, though it is slightly on the inner circle side of mid-point.

Hold the cut square up to the light and tell us how the laid lines are oriented.
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Valued Member
Canada
29 Posts
Posted 03/28/2020   10:33 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add PMStamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It is a pretty homogeneous layer of paper, but if there is any sort of laid line indication I would say they are vertical.
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551 Posts
Posted 03/28/2020   4:11 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ThomasGalloway to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Belay my last. I was looking at a W405, which exists on laid paper. W425 is only on wove paper.
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Valued Member
Canada
29 Posts
Posted 03/29/2020   10:17 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add PMStamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
That makes me feel better that I could not find any distinct laid paper lines. However, my question still remains as to why the W425 does not have a die 2 listing when it has both die 1 and die 2 characteristics. Another Die 1 copy that I have does not have these Die 2 characteristics. So I am still confused.
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