Stamp Community Family of Web Sites
Thousands of stamps, consistently graded, competitively priced and hundreds of in-depth blog posts to read
Stamp Community Forum
 
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some stamps?
Our stamp forum is completely free! Register Now!

Soft Paper Thickness For 1c Official Specimen Stamp?

Next Page    
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 3
Valued Member

13 Posts
Posted 02/17/2020   3:53 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add Einn to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hi,

Would someone with a micrometer please be so kind to share with me the measurements of the paper thickness in a few places of any of the SOFT paper 1 Cent Official Specimen stamps for both:

1.) the edge (without ink), and;
2.) and the image area (with ink)?

I recently purchased a stamp for which was described as a soft paper official O010XS Executive 1c so that I could take the measurements myself, but it turned out to be the hard paper variety O010S instead.

If someone could help with this, I would certainly appreciate the assistance.

*** Moved by Staff to a more appropriate forum. ***
Send note to Staff

Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
United States
2383 Posts
Posted 02/17/2020   5:52 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add littleriverphil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I recently purchased a stamp for which was described as a soft paper official O010XS Executive 1c so that I could take the measurements myself, but it turned out to be the hard paper variety O010S instead.

Sorry to hear that, but which one? The second printing (ribbed paper) is noted as O10S b in the Scott Specilized catalogue Can you return it?
You have an extra 0 in the number. I do not have a micrometer, but will try to help.
O10xS and O35xS were the third printing on Feb 28 1881 and are on American's soft paper. Hard to visually identify O35xS on computer monitors, but look for fibrous perf tips, chads. O10xS is very often mistaken by seller who didn't read far enough in the catalogue. I see them all the time on eBay.
Oh, look, here's one now. The stamp's color and the overprint's color give it away.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/O10-S-spec...AOSwAl5ePKR~

O57xS (Fourth printing) is on very soft, silky paper, (feels slick) and was printed Aug 3 1881. The overprint is made of mixed fonts, and is a bit longer. Don't see this one often, their color, the op and feel in hand identify them easily.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by littleriverphil - 02/17/2020 6:14 pm
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
United States
2383 Posts
Posted 02/17/2020   6:11 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add littleriverphil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Compare the overprints on the O10xS linked to above with these two, the first a pale carmine O10S b (typical ribbed paper separation) and the last, a listed O10xS.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/US-O10S-1c...AOSwU9xUNJsW

https://www.ebay.com/itm/US-O10S-1c...AOSwbdpWVg1R
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
13 Posts
Posted 02/17/2020   6:11 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Einn to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for your reply! I'm honored. I've enjoyed reading some of your posts before and they were tremendously informative.

I believe I must have purchased the ribbed. I'll find the pic and upload it. The thickness of it at the edge without ink is .067mm.

I've collected stamps for a long time, but I've had a brain injury and now I have great difficulty in retaining the ability to differentiate the stamp papers, particularly 1873-1881. I'm trying to use my micrometer to assist with this.

I'll post a more thorough reply to you shortly.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Moderator
Learn More...
7872 Posts
Posted 02/17/2020   6:14 pm  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It has been suggested that a better approach is to use a UV light to ID paper.
Don
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
United States
2383 Posts
Posted 02/17/2020   6:19 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add littleriverphil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I'll post side by side backlit paper comparisons of the hard and soft papers discussed tomorrow.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
13 Posts
Posted 02/17/2020   7:34 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Einn to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I've used a few different methods. UV light, backlighting and visual by taking photographs with oblique lighting and UV lighting.

The images show good detail, but my brain has difficulty and I become a bit confused. I thought that the measurements of thickness would assist.

For instance, the stamp in the photos below gives me some difficulty. It appears to be soft paper, but it looks different from my other soft papers. The paper thickness at the edge is 0.083-0.089mm on the edge and 0.095-0.098 in the center where there is ink.

Other soft paper stamps are 0.088mm on the edges and 0.094mm in the center. The horizontal lines in the weave are very, very fine and close together with perhaps 4 or 5 stronger lines showing in the back.

The last group appears to be soft paper is 0.072-0.075mm on the edges and 0.078-0.080mm where there is ink. There are around 10 stronger horizontal lines showing among much finer lines.

I'll post photos of the last two groups



Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
United States
2383 Posts
Posted 02/18/2020   09:36 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add littleriverphil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Your backlit photo of your 182 is much better than I pics I took this morning.I think those lines on the stamp were pressed into the stamp while being used or when it was soaked off of whatever it was applied to.
Must be the blub I'm using, adding the reddish tint. As such, I'm not sure these pics will help you any, but I'll post them for whatever value they might have.

The first pair are O10Sbc? (not sure what letter this stamp gets, 6 year old catalogue) and O10xS
Next are O35S and O35xS
And last pair are O57Xa and O57xS




Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by littleriverphil - 02/18/2020 09:40 am
Valued Member
United States
36 Posts
Posted 02/18/2020   1:17 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Burnside Bob to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Would someone with a micrometer please be so kind to share with me the measurements of the paper thickness in a few places of any of the SOFT paper 1 Cent Official Specimen stamps for both:

1.) the edge (without ink), and;
2.) and the image area (with ink)?


Have you read the John H. Barwis study Paper Characteristics of US 3 Cent Stamps, 1870-1881?

Barwis measured stamp paper thickness and found that the different types of paper vary significantly in thickness--in other words paper thickness is not definitive in determining paper type except for the very thinnest papers.

What was definitive in his study was the fiber type--later papers utilizing cotton fiber, not linen--and sizing--the substances added to paper to make it smoother and less porous--the 1879 thick paper using rosin and alum, the 1881 paper using starch, and the earlier papers using gelatin. The rosin sizing yellows with age.

Barwis also looked at paper stiffness, porosity and at combinations of factors to get a handle on paper ID.

What Barwis did not look at was presence or absence of patterning in paper. Einn's photos of the 182s illustrate both the parallel line (ribbed?) and the cross hatched blotch paper patterns. And there is a third type which looks like a brick wall. It would have been very helpful if Barwis connected paper patterning to production year.

A source addressing this may be Lowell Cooper's "Some Notes Concerning Paper and Paper Mesh on the Bank Notes". I have not found this article and would be much obliged if someone could post it up.

Not to hijack the thread too much, but here's a couple photos. The first is a One Cent Navy which clearly shows the diagonal cross hatching associated with thick porous paper. However, this stamp is, according to Scott's Specialized, an 1873 issue. The second is a 50 cent Postage Due from 1879. This stamp shows the 'brick wall' patterning and is on very thick paper that has yellowed.







Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
United States
2383 Posts
Posted 02/18/2020   1:35 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add littleriverphil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I neglected to mention that the paper used for O57xS is rather translucent. You may be able to see paper mesh as well.

Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
13 Posts
Posted 02/18/2020   1:55 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Einn to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The photos are very helpful. Thank you. Especially the last one.

My apologies. I misplaced a stamp that I wanted to use as an example and I became distracted trying to locate it.

The above photo is similar to some of my stamps. It is one of the seemingly 3 types of soft paper I have.

I'll take photos of the three kinds of soft I have and post them.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
13 Posts
Posted 02/18/2020   1:58 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Einn to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, I've read the characteristics of 3c stamps. Very helpful. I think that article also regarded the ribbed paper, thickness and image size.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
13 Posts
Posted 02/18/2020   2:11 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Einn to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I found it in Merkel's (merkeel's?) Weekly stamp news. There was another article regarding paper from 1913, I think. "Those aggravating papers" or something similar.

It was in the later where it mentions how to determine all the types and which stamps to use for reference.

One sentence has distracted me, though. It said if the specimen stamps were included that the reference stamp set would also include the paper tyoes for the Sp. Print. of '75 and '80.

However, it wasn't clear stating which specimen stamps to use. Which ones are they? Is your example above of O57xS is the soft paper used for Sp. Print of '80, or a different paper?

'75 also had two hard papers, yes? Ribbed and unribbed? So which one was the Sp. Print paper?
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
13 Posts
Posted 02/18/2020   2:17 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Einn to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I'll take photos now and post the different types of papers I have.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
United States
2383 Posts
Posted 02/18/2020   3:54 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add littleriverphil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:

'75 also had two hard papers, yes? Ribbed and unribbed? So which one was the Sp. Print paper?


Both, The first printing in July of 75 was on paper that looks like the hard paper Continental used for the regular postages stamps. The second printing in Dec of 75 was 40,000 stamps on ribbed paper.
There is also an intermediate paper used before the transition to American. O10xS and O35xS paper looks like the O95 below.

Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by littleriverphil - 02/18/2020 4:01 pm
Valued Member
13 Posts
Posted 02/18/2020   4:32 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Einn to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Is this paper the same as the O95 above?



Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Page: of 3 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Next Page
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.


Go to Top of Page
Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Stamp Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2020 Stamp Community Family - All rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Stamp Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Privacy Policy / Terms of Use    Advertise Here
Stamp Community Forum © 2007 - 2020 Stamp Community Forums
It took 0.25 seconds to lick this stamp. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05