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Soft Paper Thickness For 1c Official Specimen Stamp?

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Posted 02/18/2020   5:10 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Einn to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Here are some others.









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Posted 02/19/2020   02:02 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Burnside Bob to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I do have a few 'Specimen' Officials. In this first pair, the right stamp seems to be on very porous paper--just micro holes everywhere. Notice that the printed area of the right stamp is larger than that of the left. The two are very closely aligned at the top, but the printed design of the right stamp extends beyond its mate at the bottom.




This pair of One Cent Agriculture 'Specimen' stamps does give pause. The right stamp is on a thicker paper with the horizontal mottling pattern I called 'brick wall' in my previous post, although the pattern is not as pronounced as my prior example. The paper of the right stamp does not have micro holes. The One Cent Agriculture 'Specimen' is not listed on soft, porous paper in my freshest Scott Specialized (2015).





And here is a One Cent Navy 'Specimen' stamp on a mottled paper with multiple micro holes. While not as 'holely' as the One Cent State, the paper does seem more like that of the One Cent State than that of the One Cent Agriculture. littleriverphil, any thoughts about the State and Navy stamps being the soft porous paper flavor?





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Posted 02/19/2020   03:19 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Einn to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I remember that I believe that the heads on the images on Sp. Print. papers and the numbers at the bottom are smaller than the ones printed on the standard paper of the regular issues. I've never been able to verify this since I haven't been able to confirm which of the Specimen stamps from both '75 and '80 is printed on the same paper as the Sp. Prints. However, I believe it's the paper that is 0.080mm on the edge and appx. 0.93mms thick where there's ink.

I've been struggling for this every day with frontal lobe damage for 6 months to try and remember and having to relearn the basics every day or multiple times per day. About twice per month I'll have clarity fur a few hours, but then it dissipates and I start questioning all over again.

A top tier auction house has agreed to auction part of my WW collection. I'm supposed to be preparing photos of my US stamps to send them ... 6 weeks ago. I'm embarrassed that I have to re-learn everything on a daily basis. I'm horrified at the thought that I will send them photos of the wrong stamps.

It's not about worrying that I don't have the Sp. Prints. I do. I used to collect them. I just can't remember the papers lonumber enough to pick them out. And now, not having an adept mind any longer, I've jumbled then all together and can't separate them again.

I never intended on seeking my collection. I never wanted it known what I'd collected. The enjoyment of the hunt and knowing that they were sitting unknown in my collection was what mattered. However, my debilitated executive functions left me unable to protect myself from others who stole most of my estate's assets and only left me with a house, 482 acres of land and my stamp collection. I have to have it auctioned in order to has enough money to protect myself and hire the attorneys to reclaim my assets, which I've already been told will take millions in legal fees ... but that they can do it.

I don't want to have to admit to the auction house that I can't remember a stamp paper 20 seconds after I see it. I don't want to let them see that my abilities and capacity is so hindered. I didn't want to reveal it here either, which is why I waited so long to ask for any help. But I'm at stalling point going in circles everyday, so I had little alternative other than to seek assistance.

It takes me forever to use the photo posting system on here, so I think it will be easier to post them using a service and them provide the link. I would be appreciative if the members could help with reviewing them. Perhaps that would be better than for me to try to reach a conclusion based upon thickness ... despite continuing to believe it's an excellent tool to do so.



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Posted 02/19/2020   03:21 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Einn to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Correction for beginning of above: 0.088mms on edge and 0.093mms where there is ink.
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Posted 02/19/2020   09:53 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add littleriverphil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
any thoughts about the State and Navy stamps being the soft porous paper flavor?

Yes, they are, can even see the difference in the two overprints on the O57's.
Your soft paper O1S is the intermediate paper I mentioned earlier, I also have two of those.
You'll note in you catalogue that there were 20234 1 cent Agriculture stamps overprinted. 10,000 in July of 1875, 10,000 in Dec of 1875, and 5000 in Dec of 1883, 234 were sold.
Some think that this is where O94 comes from, a special printing without the overprint. While others, (including me) think that American would not deliver stamps that where not as ordered.
Compare the overprint of your soft paper State and soft paper Agriculture. See any similarities?
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Posted 02/19/2020   8:45 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Einn to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks to all for the assistance. A spark ignited, clarity has returned and I'm now able to complete the '75-'80 period of my task. I'm both pleased and relieved. Cheers.
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Posted 02/20/2020   08:05 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add littleriverphil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I remember that I believe that the heads on the images on Sp. Print. papers and the numbers at the bottom are smaller than the ones printed on the standard paper of the regular issues.


All of the special printings used the same plates as the normal departmental stamps.


Quote:
Thanks to all for the assistance. A spark ignited, clarity has returned and I'm now able to complete the '75-'80 period of my task. I'm both pleased and relieved. Cheers.


I do hope we have helped to some degree.
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Edited by littleriverphil - 02/20/2020 08:06 am
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Posted 02/20/2020   1:27 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Burnside Bob to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Einn, my thanks to you for starting this thread. The Bank Note papers, and how to distinguish them, puzzle me. Candidly, I have found the in-print discussions inadequate to describe and differentiate stamps in my collection. The Barwis paper is the one source discussing objective criteria, but as it omits paper patterning, seems incomplete.

My thanks, littleriverphil, for your very informative and enlightening posts. Yes, I am one who never noticed the porous paper specimen listings in Scott Specialized! I see them now, thank you!


A couple questions, if you don't mind.


Quote:
All of the special printings used the same plates as the normal departmental stamps.


In the following photo the printed design of the right stamp is noticeably larger. Is this due solely to differences in paper shrinkage or was more than one die used to make the plate? I looked at both stamps with a loupe, and the right stamp is approximately 1/2 mm wider and 1 mm taller than its mate. I can scan these stamps with a metal ruler if anyone would like to see.




The Luff book gives production numbers for the Officials thru 1884, but also indicates most were never released and subsequently destroyed. Production numbers are given for quite a few officials not listed as 1879 issues. Per Barwis, stamps printed 1881-1884 would have different sizing (starch), so theoretically could be differentiated from earlier issues. Have any been found?


Best to you both, Einn and littleriverphil!

Burnside



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Posted 02/20/2020   4:54 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add littleriverphil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I can scan these stamps with a metal ruler if anyone would like to see.

I'd like to see them scanned together, so that a crop of one could be overlayed on the larger stamp. The sizing or lack of is the likely cause of the size difference.
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Posted 02/24/2020   2:52 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Burnside Bob to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi littleriverphil. Finally got to scanning. First three scans are same width in pixels before and after running thru SC image optimizer. Before optimization all scans were at 1200 dpi.

The larger stamp is more yellow in color (color difference not showing well in scans).




Width comparison, smaller stamp over the larger:




Height comparison, smaller stamp over the larger:





Just for grins, other "Specimen" officials, all on thinner white paper:





Burnside
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Posted 02/24/2020   3:58 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add littleriverphil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you Bob. Your second scan seems to show the soft paper (stamp image) is wider than the hard paper, the other scans seem to show the perfs lined up, rather than the edges of the prints.

On your two O25Ss, one shows the "dropped S", compare it to the Even S next to it. Is it upside down?
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Posted 02/25/2020   01:25 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Burnside Bob to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks littleriverphil.

On scans 1 and 3 I was trying to align the printed design of the two stamps on the left, not the perfs. While I didn't get it quite even, both scans show the printed design of the yellow green stamp to be about 0.5 mm taller.

I don't think a different die was entered--just paper shrinkage.

Anyhow, talking about eye strain, looking at the right stamp in the first scan the overprint is more heavily inked so the letters appear larger than on the left stamp but both "E"s of "Specimen" on the right stamp seem to be a bigger font than the other letters. Am I imagining that?

Thanks,

Burnside
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Posted 02/25/2020   09:04 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add littleriverphil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
looking at the right stamp in the first scan the overprint is more heavily inked so the letters appear larger than on the left stamp but both "E"s of "Specimen" on the right stamp seem to be a bigger font than the other letters. Am I imagining that?


No, not your imagination. The O57xS op does appear bolder. The overprint also appears to be a different hue of red than those of the hard paper stamps, but that could be the difference in the underlying stamp's paper and color.

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Edited by littleriverphil - 02/25/2020 1:45 pm
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Posted 02/25/2020   2:29 pm  Show Profile Check cfrphoto's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add cfrphoto to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The left hand Agriculture Specimen pictured above appears to be on horizontally ribbed paper and would be assigned the Scott catalog number O1Sb if so. Shine a light across the back at an oblique angle to highlight paper texture, especially ribbing.
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Posted 02/25/2020   11:42 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Burnside Bob to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
To further the discussion, I rescanned the One Cent State "Specimen" stamps at 2400 dpi. Unlike last time, I did hit the default color correction button of Microsoft Photo Editor, which did result in a more pronounced color difference between stamps.

I then cropped the original image to capture just the "Specimen" overprints on each stamp. Near as I could determine, measuring pixels, "Specimen" on the left stamp measures 170 pixels tall x 1056 pixels wide, and 188 pixels tall x 1071 pixels wide on the right stamp. Both crops, shown below, are 1200 pixels wide x 300 pixels tall.





"Specimen" on left stamp in scan above, followed by "Specimen" on right stamp in scan above.







In my last post I asked if the letters "E" of the right stamp might be of a larger font than the other letters in "Specimen". In this view it looks like the ink may have bled out, making the letters appear physically larger. So, answering my own question, it appears "No".

But I do appreciate your scans, littleriverphil, which show differences in fonts. And I would like to know how you are putting your "specimen" crops into one image like that. Back in the 16 bit computing days, my antique copy of Photoshop would let me do that, but now its a 64 bit world, my 16 bit computer is dead, and that program collects dust in my bottom desk drawer.

cfrphoto, I did look at the One Cent Agriculture. It does appear to have faint horizontal lines or ribs, but these are not nearly as pronounced as on other stamps I have. Of the various "Specimen" officials, the One Cent Navy I illustrated in a prior post has the most prominent horizontal lines or ribs. There are several threads on Stamp Community where folks have said, to paraphrase and condense, "Hey, is this stamp on the 40 ribs/inch paper?". Universally the community concensus has been, "NO, that's an artifact of wet stamp paper and the printing press". And the proffered examples of ribbing looked more pronounced than mine, so I've kept my head down on that topic.

Anyhow, I don't have the knowledge and experience to decide if paper patterning is native to the paper or a printing process artifact. To correct my knowledge deficiency, I bit the bullet and bought a copy of the American Philatelic Congress's 45th Congress proceedings, which contains the article about paper patterning of the bank note papers. Hopefully a new dawn is brightening, but not until the March 9th delivery of the book!

Thanks, all!

Burnside.





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