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Siegel Offering The Edward Morton Us Collection In April

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Posted 04/08/2020   12:11 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I never root for somebody to take a loss. Karma.
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Posted 04/08/2020   4:28 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Sales Day One: Ouch. That was not a haircut, that was a tight shave. So much for SMQ values. The results may alter SMQ values given that some of the high grades were very lightly populated and subject to change based upon one sale. I did find it interesting that the stamps sprinkled throughout the sale that did not have published SMQ values did better relative to catalog value, in many cases much better. We will see what the remaining sales sessions do. No doubt there were some real bargains to be had even with the healthy amount of bidders.
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Posted 04/08/2020   5:05 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Healthy amount of bidders? We have no way of knowing how many serious bidders there actually were. No doubt there were a number of useful underbidders, but someone who bids on 20 lots and does not win even one is not a serious bidder to me. I will always root for someone who deliberately cuts a rare strip in the hopes of making more money on an artificially created stamp to lose money. LOTS of money.
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Posted 04/08/2020   5:39 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Lots of bidders based upon the number of different Internet paddle numbers.
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Posted 04/08/2020   6:09 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add dudley to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I will always root for someone who deliberately cuts a rare strip in the hopes of making more money on an artificially created stamp to lose money.


Precisely. Karma.
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Posted 04/08/2020   7:04 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
"I will always root for someone who deliberately cuts a rare strip in the hopes of making more money on an artificially created stamp to lose money."

The quoted comment is more virtue signaling than anything. Nobody knows who cut the strip, do they? Why root for the current owner to take a loss when he may have done nothing more than purchase a stamp. Does the new owner as of today deserve to take a loss as well. Why? Is it now a chain of punishment because of one person's actions? That is nonsensical and unrealistic.

Edit: Here is a thought. An individual or group of concerned philatelists or an institution should have purchased the strip for the purpose of keeping it intact.

Cheers
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Edited by rogdcam - 04/08/2020 7:09 pm
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Posted 04/08/2020   7:22 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add bobplates to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I guess it really depends upon whether the buyer depended upon SMQ as his guiding light of value. Perhaps this is an ignorant question but when did SMQ come about? 10 years ago? 20 years ago? I really don't know.

The collector may have accumulated many of these stamps at much lower cost points and is happy with the results so far. That analysis would require a time value of money and auction cost analysis to know for sure... of course there is "collecting happiness" part of the equation that is impossible to calculate.

Frankly I am sure that Siegel is very unhappy that they had to pass the "premier"(some may say butchered) lot in this sale. I am sure that they are wiping some egg off their face right now. As in all judgement calls there is uncertainty and it looks like Siegel blew this particular call. They have plenty of reputational gravitas to fall back on, so the short or long term damage is probably considered to be ... nil... for them.

Bob
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Posted 04/08/2020   7:58 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The strip of three sold in the 2007 Rarities sale for $170,000. In 2012 it was auctioned as a single, which did not sell (Merlin Collection). Whenever the current owner did buy it, it was well known to have been cut from a strip. So he became an accessory after the fact. The only way to stop these atrocities is for them to continue to not sell anywhere near the price of the multiples they were cut from.
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Posted 04/08/2020   8:03 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add bobplates to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Right... that wasn't really my point The collector took a bath on that particular item... how about the rest? Is this a refutation of the high end stamp market in general or just this one particular "slicing".
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Posted 04/08/2020   8:17 pm  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
For me, the question boils down to the provenance being 'well known'. Obviously many players in the higher end marketplace should be educated and do their homework but our hobby also clearly lacks 'provenance transparency' (not sure 'provenance transparency' is a real thing but it best describes what I mean).

We just got the PSE cert database published last month. It would help if all the certifying organizations would allow their databases to be combined into a single searchable index but I doubt that would happen (although I am willing to do this for free if they would like it implemented).

Other profiting parties, like auction firms, do not feel they have any responsibility in addressing the lack of 'provenance transparency'. They currently do not have financial incentive to invest in provenance discovery. Would our hobby support increased auction fees if the auction firms invested their time in doing (and publishing) discovery on provenance?
Don
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Posted 04/08/2020   8:52 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Plenty of philatelic items have a provenance, but the number of famous philatelists that are considered worthy of mentioning is a limited one.
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Posted 04/08/2020   9:06 pm  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
All stamps and covers have provenance but word of mouth or posting in a forum does not put the provenance information at the point of sale. If provenance information was a part of each auction listing, the impact of breaking up of multiples would be better understood and allow buyers to make more informed buying decisions. It would also highlight issues like stamp/cover alterations.

In my opinion it costs nothing to make posts about this issue but if it comes down to paying for the provenance information the support for the ethics of this issue evaporates.
Don
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Posted 04/08/2020   9:10 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add dudley to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Because of the significance attached to the outer portions of the 1c 1851 design, examples that have been carefully cut apart so as not to impinge on any part of the design are extremely desirable. The narrow spacing between stamps in the sheet and the users' indifference to the outlying ornamentation during separation are factors that contribute to the great rarity of four-margin examples.


This was part of the description for the strip of three in the 2007 Rarities Sale, and it was repeated in today's sale, with the added BS caveat that the strip was cut to preserve the margins of the center stamp (!). The fact is that the strip was destroyed (by whomever) so that the #5 could get a 90+ Jumbo grade, something that completely undercuts the idea that four-margin examples are of "great rarity" because of the practices of users at the time. No one should profit from this artificial creation of a jumbo single, no matter how many times it changes hands.
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Edited by dudley - 04/08/2020 9:12 pm
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Posted 04/08/2020   9:16 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The provenance point is an excellent one that frankly never crossed my mind. I started doing much more research well into my collecting activity and only because I happened to have more time to do so. The main reason that I started doing so was to arrive at a reasonable value for a given item and I would run across provenance information incidentally in some cases. The information was usually in the form of "Ex Merlin" or something to that affect. I never did a deep dive to see if a stamp came from a multiple of significance and I suspect that many collectors do not go that far. Even if I did, as Don points out, the task is pretty much impossible given that there is no system to designate which stamps were culled from multiples. The best firm when it comes to descriptions, for my money, is RAS and as good and detailed as they are I cannot recall them ever stating that a particular stamp came from a multiple that was broken. And why should they when they have a responsibility to their consigners and themselves, as a for-profit enterprise, to realize the most that they possibly can and the culling of a stamp may have a negative impact on achieving that goal.

With all of that being said, if I purchase a stamp that came from a broken multiple, I have done nothing wrong and I should not be reviled or punished financially for either buying it, or selling it later, especially if I did not know from whence it came. That is illogical. If one wants to pillory someone go after the person that cut the multiple. That might elicit agreement from purists or people that simply love and want to see these pieces of history preserved. It will not change the reality of what a free market is about however. If you own it and there is no law against it and you are comfortable with the discord it will cause you are within your rights to cut it up. It ain't pretty but it is reality.

It is a complex problem that admittedly has been exacerbated by grading, No doubt about it. Certain early issues seem to elicit the greatest emotional response but there are countless singles across the breadth of philately that all started out in multiples and were culled to feed demand. Many of those multiples have become exceedingly scarce if not downright rare. Perhaps we all need to be punished financially so as to be fair about it.

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Posted 04/08/2020   9:20 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Dudley - They are talking about the original users' back in the day. They are not talking about modern day cutting.
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