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Trouble With The Taylor 5 Cent A55 Idenfying It It.

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Valued Member
238 Posts
Posted 04/27/2020   11:17 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Dan Townsend to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you CFRPhoto;
I understand that and that's why you are saying there was proof with everyone of the 181's that have been found.
I don't have that kind of proof but I have a theory and maybe evidence that my stamp is one of those 181 stamps.
Does anyone want to here it, solving one of the greatest stamp mystery's.
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Valued Member
238 Posts
Posted 04/27/2020   1:40 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Dan Townsend to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Ok everyone;
Here goes nothing ,I woke up last night thinking about this stamp trying to figure out what I could do to prove this stamp was a 181 with out paper work impossible right ,I kept thinking.
So I had a couple things to go on, "why have a special printing"?
People don't do things if they think they are losing money.
So that was the start ,looking at my stamp I could say they had many problems,# 1 the paper was brittle the printing wasn't sharp, a perforation was missing a hole,could this stamp have problems taking it apart ,maybe they had to be cut apart to save the stamp and not damage it, I'm thinking ,people might complain .
So they would lose money if people didn't like the hassle and might not buy.
Now that's a start this lends me to believe the special printing was a experiment or testing different hard paper formula's.
My stamp was a loser and they needed something better and looking at the 9 stamps that are verified as a 181 these stamps were so different in this criteria .Some were sharp some were not, the paper looked soft on some and some they weren't ,why that was ? It was a great problem! the good one's were softer paper easier to use and better quality sharper image .The one thing that was very apparent ,the harder the stamps were the sharpness was missing.
And now you see a transition to a softer stamp, was that a coincident?
So if my stamp was not a dog you or I probably would not know what it was with out paper work "the one to be made better".
Has the mystery been solved I don't know but it would make a lot of sense.
Follow the money follow the results!
Thanks for listening .
Dan
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Edited by Dan Townsend - 04/28/2020 12:51 am
Pillar Of The Community
United States
614 Posts
Posted 04/27/2020   6:40 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Caper123 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Dan, as you requested, here is a phone camera photo taken of the stamp in question (2nd from the left) with back lighting. This is the best I can do...sorry.

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United States
614 Posts
Posted 04/27/2020   7:24 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Caper123 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Dan, this is off topic, but interesting. While looking at these stamps closer I decided to use my micrometer (electric) to check thickness and noticed that one had an apparent grill! I say apparent as it appears different than grills I am familiar with previously. I have no idea whether it is legit or not and had no clue I had it.






By the way the stamp on the left measured .003 in. and the others .0035. Doesn't seem to measure closer than that.
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Edited by Caper123 - 04/27/2020 7:30 pm
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Posted 04/27/2020   7:58 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Dan Townsend to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Wow that is amazing it does kinda look like a grill. I have never seen a grill like those so I guess I wouldnt be the person to talk to but what else could it be. You need to find out, it would be interesting to find out?
The first two look like a 185 the other two are hard to see .A 185 have these block looking patterns where the
179 are clear.I see a pattern of dots which I think could be a blocks also.
I hope that will help.
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Posted 04/28/2020   01:37 am  Show Profile Check cfrphoto's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add cfrphoto to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Bogus grills are found occasionally on soft paper or re-engraved bank note stamps. The hard paper 5 cent 179 exists with a Continental J grill, none reported used. The raised grill points should form a rectangular grid. Characteristics of the Continental grill differ from National Bank Note Company grills used in production.
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238 Posts
Posted 04/29/2020   3:06 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Dan Townsend to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Everyone;
The journey continues to find more facts about this stamp of mine.
I think there should more info to describe this stamp and why they made it,"put in writing' not just my feeling.
I found this great website called Swedish tiger and it describes this stamp really good and why they changed some formula's with what.It was great have it in writing and prove some of the idea's I had about this stamp were real.
I think the best take away is the fact that Ron Burn's didn't like this stamp and he made experiments using special formula's with starch .He found out using starch differently created the blurry look and it wasn't what he liked or wanted ,and this what you see in the Special printing.
Was it is why my stamp was really smooth? maybe but what else could have done that, but reading this article ,"it made see it was the starch" ,making me believe also using starch thicker made the stamp harder to use. and that is why the hole puncher perforation went past the paper and making no hole ,it was to hard.
Here is what they say in the article
Check it out let me know
Thanks Dan
https://www.theswedishtiger.com/181-scotts.html
The 1873-1879 period was a period of intensive experimentation in the papers used to fulfill the tenets of the contract to print U.S. stamps.
Charles Steele, the inventor of the grilling apparatus used to "grill" the 1869-1876 issues, was the superintendent of printing for the Continental
Bank Note Companny. He had hoped to reduce the labor costs involved with the printing and grilling processes, by employing the first steam
powered printing press to print stamps, replace the grilling operation with a stamp washing proof paper, and by reducing the cost of the
paper used to print stamps.

The hardwhite wove paper used on the labor intensive hand operated presses proved too brittle to withstand the rigors of the
steam press process. To solve the problem, Steele tried using a machine made, continuous web, soft paper that was "porous"
because it lacked "seizing", the "filler" (usually starch), used to harden the paper and provide a smooth surface to print on. This resulted in the
introduction of thick to medium soft porous paper in the printing of U.S. stamps. *2 The resultant printings were unsatisfactory as the porous
paper sucked up the ink and distributed it through capillary action to make a "fuzzy" image. This low cost paper was also made
from cotton rags and old paper, with sometimes a little straw added. This extremely calendered paper, looks "mottled" (like modern newsprint) when held to the light.

He began to add his own starch in an attempt to produce a printing surface which would produce an acceptable image; while trying
to maintain enough flexibility to withstand the rigors of the steam press. The resultant paper is called "Continental Intermediate paper". This paper
is a hard paper with the mottled pattern of the soft papers. This paper is identified by holding the stamp up to the light and seeing a
"mottled" pattern in the paper similar to what you see when you hold newsprint up to the light, yet retains the high pitched "ping" response characteristic of the
hard papers when subjected to the "snap test" (see above).
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238 Posts
Posted 05/01/2020   4:28 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Dan Townsend to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I found more info I think you will find interesting ;
This a quote by Siegel auctions
https://siegelauctions.com/enc/pdf/1875ContSP.pdf
It states here;
It is also possible that orders for the 2c Vermilion and 5c Blue were filled with ordinary stamps or another unrecognized variation of a special printing. Further research to determine why the 2c and 5c are so rare is warranted.
Probably the only way to prove this stamp. It is hoping that something like a finger print, like characteristic of the other 10 special printed stamps.And find something totally different than the other stamps that were made like the 179 or white hard paper wove if that makes any sense.If the special printing were experiments, not all should be the the same .
I can see the front view of the 9 stamps and I find 6 stamps that are a harder paper and look like mine. And the three
that have a softer paper look .And the six that are hard have a blurry print look, where the other three are sharp prints.
As I look at these stamps closely the fifth verify stamp looks the closest like mine.
I'm thinking the back of the 10 verified stamp would almost be needed to be looked at to compare my stamp to.
The first picture is the stamps comparison to my stamp,and the #5 of the 181 verified.Also if you look back at the nine 181 verified stamps the #1 looks close too.
The color is different ,it is always will be because its a photo

The second photo is the blurry look of the #5 verified STAMP

The third is closeup of #5

And the fourth is a photo of a closeup of my stamp

And the fifth one is a closeup of a verified 181 stamp that has a softer paper , notice how sharp it is.

And the sixth one is a close up view of a hard paper 181 verified
stamp .

This is real interesting but will most likely will not not prove anything in the court of law but it may give hope out there .That there might still be a elusive 181 still hiding under a rock some where.
Thats all I have to today I hope you in joy!!
Thanks Dan

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Edited by Dan Townsend - 05/02/2020 11:51 am
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New Zealand
238 Posts
Posted 05/02/2020   4:47 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lostandfound to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Dan I have to say your determination is outstanding. Got'ta love a determined chap!

Would you get it expertised and then rest re-assured? Its a lot cheaper in your country to get such work done.

I would love to see the results.. even if you have been assured by the omnipotence of information here on scf.
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238 Posts
Posted 05/02/2020   6:46 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Dan Townsend to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Lost and found;
I tried to find out about this stamp and wrote a email to a company just to that get a certificate.
And they didn't even return my email so what does that tell you ,is there something fishy?I don't know.
With the experience I have with these company's you have to know exactly what you have because they wouldn't tell you anything, except this is this or its that and not tell you why with out no proof which I believe they don't know either, that just the way thing look to me.
And with the new information from Siegal's stamp auction ,I think there is a good reason to wonder about this stamp.Think of it zero amount "used" ,maybe a good reason was only special people got the good one's
So that was 10 what about the 140 left wouldn't people love to have 445,000.00 dollars today.
And seeing the info out their, people have questions and with no real good information .
Here's a good one why do people think the white hard paper was printed on other printings not just the special series like the Scott's books says and shouldn't they recognize these other printings and put a price on them if they thought there was one after 145 years.If there was something newly discovered let us see and where it came from that's all I'm saying is that to much to ask let everyone decide for them selves.
Like I keep saying maybe the only true answers will be found in the future with a machine that can tell you for sure what it is and why, wouldn't that be great!
If there is a mystery here?
If everyone agrees let me know ?

Thanks Dan
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United States
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Posted 05/26/2020   5:12 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Caper123 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Dan Townsend - Picked this one up the other day. It is the whitest paper yet.



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238 Posts
Posted 05/26/2020   10:09 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Dan Townsend to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Wow that is really white,thanks for sharing.
Im still on the look out for white ones too they are very cool .
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Posted 05/26/2020   10:21 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Dan Townsend to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I have a another observation
It looks like the paper is very hard just because the edges are so sharp.Is the paper really smooth or have a molted web of paper fiber ?
It looks to me like its very smooth tight fiber like my stamp.
The best way to see the texture of the stamp is look at it in a dull lighting and angle the stamp it will pick up more detail of the paper.
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Posted 05/27/2020   12:18 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Cleaned?
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United States
614 Posts
Posted 05/27/2020   9:13 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Caper123 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Rodgcam, as best as I can tell it has not been cleaned.

Dan, I will work on your suggestion. Will post results later.
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