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Philatelic Foundation Certificate Search Down?

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Pillar Of The Community
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Posted 04/30/2020   7:35 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The PSE search has already been very useful to me in research.
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Posted 04/30/2020   7:35 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It's not a statement about you, it's a statement about PSE. They are the ones who would not let the rest be posted. It appears that only the certs done during the time of the current owner is allowed, which does a great disservice since they are still considered significant.
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Posted 04/30/2020   7:48 pm  Show Profile Check revenuecollector's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add revenuecollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
APEX also has a searchable cert archive:

https://stamps.org/certificate-archive
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Posted 04/30/2020   8:09 pm  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
rev,
Understood, I know that you have a close relationship with PF (a competitor) and you are right that it is limited to the last 10 years. The database itself actually has no limitations, all the certs are in it, but the SQL queries that display the pages are restricted from showing the certs older than 10 years. But the amount of work and dedication that went into this effort, especially from Lorry, is not often seen in our hobby. And that effort is continuing, just this week we are planning an update to add 2020 certs. The update alone represents a significant number of man hours.
Sorry if I came across as defensive, it is hard to pour this kind of work into something and think that others feel it seriously limited.
Don
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Posted 04/30/2020   8:36 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I don't understand the "serious limitations" comment. Prior to the Stamp Smarter PSE database there was zero means of searching other than looking at a specific certificate number. Kind of like having nothing to read, somebody gives you a book and you complain that it has too many words.

As the saying goes, "no good deed goes unpunished".

At least the PSE database was up and running for the month that the PF database was "broken".



Cheers
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Posted 04/30/2020   10:02 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Having a book is great, but this is like having a book that is missing 10 chapters. I respect the efforts that went into producing what exists, but PSE should be brought to task for not allowing many years of certs to be searched simply because the current ownership was not there at the time. It's not as if the images and information don't exist. Imagine if the PF had done that; people would be screaming about it. They even got the material that was only available on microfilm up. And I know what was involved in doing it, I personally scanned at least 30,000 of the images on the PF site including all of the early (pre cert 112,000)images.
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Posted 04/30/2020   10:11 pm  Show Profile Check revenuecollector's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add revenuecollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
While I agree with Bart in principle (more than a few PSE certs I own are not included in the Stamp Smarter PSE database), it may be that PSE told Don they would only provide the "current" cert data.

Sadly, this attitude on the part of PSE creates a barrier to research. I disagree that certs before date X from any expertizing body don't have value. They do have value, even if contrarian or uncertain. Let there be a disclaimer saying that "certificates numbered before XXXXX predate current ownership. Current ownership takes no responsibility for the accuracy of those certificates" or some such, but PLEASE make the data available.

Speaking only for myself, so much of my aggregation/census work depends on population examples being available. The fact that such data exists but is deliberately withheld from public view is maddening. It's certainly their RIGHT to withhold their data, but that doesn't exempt them from criticism for doing so.

Ultimately the data, good bad or otherwise, benefits the collecting community at large, and should be made available.
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Posted 04/30/2020   10:39 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add uboatnut to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
In 2018,I asked PSE about one of their 1992 certs I wanted to confirm prior to purchasing the stamp. This was their response.

"It is my understanding that we did not keep records of certificates in 1992. The company has also changed owners a few times since then so paper records from 26 years ago would be unlikely. PSE has been attempting to get old certificates like this updated with new information. Technology and grading methods have changed over the last 20 years and our experts would love to see your item again. We would be happy to evaluate and issue a new certificate for this item via our "crossover" program. If you would like to do this, please let me know."

The stamp was a Canal Zone #3, which is frequently faked. I bought a different stamp rather than take them up on their offer. Incidentally, PSE no longer certifies Canal Zone stamps. PF will do it, and I don't know about APEX or PSAG.


It seems nothing has changed at PSE. I agree that any cert issued by any certifying agency should be included in a searchable database so potential buyers and sellers can confirm authenticity and perhaps compare earlier findings to recent ones.

Randall Jacobs, who owns PSAG, was the original founder/owner of PSE. It is conceivable that he might have records for the PSE certs he issued prior to the sale.

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Edited by uboatnut - 04/30/2020 10:45 pm
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Posted 04/30/2020   10:45 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Someone with a cert from that era should go to their site and enter the number and see if it comes up. If they no longer have a record of it then it is worthless. Anyone could fake one.
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Posted 04/30/2020   10:48 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add uboatnut to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I did that originally in 2018. The PSE website verification system claimed it couldn't find it. That's why I wrote to PSE (see their response above).
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Edited by uboatnut - 05/01/2020 10:32 am
Pillar Of The Community
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Posted 04/30/2020   11:48 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I saw it, I thought a few more attempts might show some sense of how many years are involved.
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Posted 05/01/2020   12:30 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Sounds like a good project for somebody with time on their hands to take on, filling in the blanks. Who will join me?
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Posted 05/01/2020   03:15 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
PSE certs on their site are taken from their database; in other words what PSE displays on their site is pulled from their database and are not actual scans of hard copy certs. I have no knowledge of what hard copy certs they might or might not have in a file drawer or boxes somewhere.
The Stamp Smarter database has all PSE certs from 11/5/1996 forward (same as the PSE database) but a Stamp Smarter query limits displaying the certs issued prior to 1/1/2009. I have queried and looked at certs between 11/5/1996 and 1/1/2009 and to be honest nothing jumps out to me as a significant change in the way certs were issued. I have not combed through them with a fine tooth comb or written SQL queries to show how grading criteria may or may not have changed in that time period.

I look at it this way. If I was starving for food, I would appreciate whatever someone might be willing to share. Our hobby was starving for better PSE certification information, so I appreciate what we have. I do not think that this is a light salad nor is it a 5 course meal; it is an enjoyable main course without any soup, appetizer, or desert. Would have really liked desert but it still tastes pretty good when you are hungry.
Don
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Posted 05/01/2020   08:20 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
But one should not lose sight of the fact that despite having 100 empty seats the restaurant is still making us all sit at the children's table. This is not the fault of the employees who do their best; it is an owners decision.
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Posted 05/01/2020   08:30 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jogil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Don: Thank you very much for posting the new PSE certificate search feature on your Stamp Smarter website. It has been very helpful in my recent searching for U.S. "small hole" coil stamp perforations.
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