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Show Your US 1851-57 Imperforate Stamps

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Author Replies: 2,538 / Views: 121,558Next Topic
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Valued Member
United States
364 Posts
Posted 09/28/2022   12:55 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ioagoa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Harper--

Great catch!

I believe you are correct that the "cropped-up" block of four stamps currently slotted in the "image 1" position of the StampSmarter data base for positions 67-78R4 are actually 27-38R4.

That said -- the particular StampSmarter images that are the subject of this discussion are very poor quality -- and are not really suitable for plating work. Most notably, the image quality really does not do justice to the side FL's -- as many of the key plating characteristics are either distorted or just not clearly visible. For example -- on position 37R4 -- the lower fourth of LFL shows a strong doubling -- and there is no hint of this in the SS scan. There are numerous other characteristics that are distorted by the poor scan quality as well. Still -- based on the recut URDB on 28R4 -- and the distinctive bends in the TFL's of all four stamps -- by process of elimination, they have to be 27-38R4. It would be nice if the original contributor of those images is still active here on SCF -- and would be able to upgrade the scans to 1200dpi and with less compression.

In the meantime -- below are additional reference copies of 27-38R4 -- which show more typical "plate 4" impressions.

Again -- Great Catch !!!

Regards // ioagoa




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United States
178 Posts
Posted 09/29/2022   12:07 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Harper1249 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the confirmation and very nice examples. I'll at least move them to the correct positions. They are poor quality scans but I'm not going to make the call the remove them from the database.
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United States
1062 Posts
Posted 09/30/2022   1:16 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add chipg to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
This example is unsealed and although there is a handwritten message, it is only, "Forwarded by Jos G. Whitaker".

My contention is that this handwritten message is not extensive enough for a postmaster to have not accepted the 3c circular rate and demanded the 3c regular rate.



Well, you listed two criteria, but only one of which was met.
If you want to claim it to be sent at the circular rate, you can't just discount the handwriting.

Regardless, the letter rate was 3c, it was paid 3c, so it should be considered properly mailed at this rate.
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Valued Member
United States
14 Posts
Posted 09/30/2022   3:06 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add 40yearBreak to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I didn't think I had any 4 margin 3c imperf until I made a second pass back round and found this one. I skipped by it the first time because the cancel is rather messy and it takes away from the eye appeal and hides the fact that there are margins up in the top right sections of this stamp. Also, the quality of the print on this one is not nearly as good as the prior 3 I have plated. The overall quality of the printing and the heavy inking at the bottom of the TLB made me think this may be either a wet printing or perhaps just uneven application of ink. Thoughts?

I have plated this to 76L1L (with pretty high confidence). I used the Plating Wizard at stampplating.com and selected Relief A, 2 inner lines, and re-cut #11. That got me to 74 candidates. From there it was not too tough to eliminate most candidates due to the unique spacing at the upper left corner of this stamp. The ULDB and the URT do not align which seemed pretty unique when going through the candidates. Also, the very small amount of spacing between the inner and outer frame lines between the nose and chin on both sides made this relatively easy to plate.


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United States
178 Posts
Posted 10/02/2022   1:03 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Harper1249 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
40yearbreak,

Nice job plating this one. I concur that is 76L1L.

Harper1249
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Valued Member
United States
14 Posts
Posted 10/06/2022   2:43 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add 40yearBreak to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Harper1249 thanks for confirming my 76L1L plating.

This next one I want to attempt to plate is really giving me some struggles. Again, I would appreciate if those with more experience can push me in a direction of the likely plate to start with based on plate characteristics.

There are no IFLs, but I do not see any other notable re-cuts. There is a very faint line between the LRT and the LRDB (recut #40?), but the plating wizard says that 15L1E is the only stamp with no IFL and re-cut #40, and this stamp does not match.

I do notice that the details in all 4 DB's are nice and clear, but I am not sure if that should direct me to any specific plate.

Additionally, I am struggling with the Relief. It appears as though there is an open at the top, which would indicate Relief B, but the open looks a strange color as if it may be a tiny scrape or stain. And where the impingement would be at the bottom, there is the cancel getting in the way. Again, I would appreciate input on the Relief. Thanks.


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848 Posts
Posted 10/06/2022   3:25 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Moyock13 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
40YB,

There is a trace of an Inner Right Frame Line next the the upper right rosette.
Looks like a "B" relief.
Bottom Frame Line looks to be recut, pretty thick and almost doubled toward the right side.
And notice the word "Three" where the cross part takes an upward slant on the left.
I doubt that Chase talks about any of this but there are clues to assist you in identification of plate.
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United States
1985 Posts
Posted 10/06/2022   4:11 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Classic Coins to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi 40yearBreak,

Nice stamp!

Moyock13 is correct that there is a trace of a right inner frame line near the UR rosette. However, this is not a result of recutting, so this stamp appears to be a #11 (no inner lines recut). The trace of an inner line near the UR rosette was from the master die, and it generally is visible in this area on #11s.

The frame line curves will be helpful in plating this one, and I would focus on plates 6, 7, and 8.
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United States
178 Posts
Posted 10/06/2022   10:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Harper1249 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Following on Classic Coins post, stamps from Plates 6 and 7 have a faint bottom frame line except for bottom and top rows most of which were recut. Stamps from Plate 8 all have a heavy bottom frame line.

Harper
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Valued Member
United States
364 Posts
Posted 10/06/2022   10:57 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ioagoa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi 40yearBreak --

Following up on all of the info / hints from Moyock, Classic, and Harper -- I can confirm that your stamp is a B relief and is from plate 8.

The bends in the RFL are very distinctive -- and I would suggest using the relationship between the RFL and the design as your primary plating characteristic for your first go-around in generating a "short list" of candidates.

Once you generate a "short list" of candidates -- you should carefully check all other plating characteristics -- as there are a few similar positions on the plate.

By the way -- very nice stamp -- and with a crisp impression!!

Regards // ioagoa

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United States
14 Posts
Posted 10/07/2022   4:16 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add 40yearBreak to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks to Moyock13, Classic Coins, Harper1249, and Ioagoa for the tips.

I did want to correct one thing I said earlier. I had said that "I do notice that the details in all 4 DB's are nice and clear, but I am not sure if that should direct me to any specific plate." Clearly I meant "all 4 triangles" and not all 4 DB's. The clarity of the lines in the triangles is really good on this stamp. It appears that for many of the images I have looked at of this design you can rarely make out all of the design lines of the triangles but all 4 triangles on this stamp are nice and clear.

Unfortunately, that spot at the bottom of TLB on the "S" is a pin-hole. And that odd looking line through the middle of the "E" in NEW of the cancel is also a small cut through the stamp. Those two flaws are very disappointing for what is otherwise a very nice looking stamp.
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United States
364 Posts
Posted 10/07/2022   5:43 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ioagoa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi 40yearBreak --

Generally speaking -- in and of themselves, the clarity of the lines in the 4 triangles do not usually point to any specific plate. In fact -- on almost any given "dull red" (i.e., #11 / #11A) plate -- you can find stamps with impressions ranging from "proof-like" to "mud" -- and everything in between.

On the other hand -- when it comes to the triangles -- the recutting most often seen is a strengthening, by use of a hand tool, in one or more of the vertical lines -- and this is a very important plating characteristic when hunting for a specific position.

Also -- and this is very generally speaking -- on plates where re-entry occurred and with no additional recutting -- more specifically when plate 1E became plate 1i -- as a result of the re-entry process the fine lines of the triangles became a bit pressed out and blurred -- BUT -- the overall deepening of the recesses often resulted in the color saturation within the triangles becoming a bit stronger. That said, this is not always the case -- as the impact of differences in inking, impression and plate wear are also major factors that come into play -- and can make separating out stamps from these two plates extremely challenging -- but nonetheless, it is one of the clues to look for when having difficulty determining the state of the plate with stamps from plates 1E and 1i.

Enough of my rambling about the triangles -- and back to your stamp. Not sure if you are going to continue the hunt for the plate position -- or if you would like to know what it is? I have plated your stamp -- and am happy to either confirm your plating -- or reveal the position -- whichever you prefer.

Regards // ioagoa

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United States
14 Posts
Posted 10/08/2022   8:19 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add 40yearBreak to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Ioagoa,

Thanks for the information on line clarity in the triangles.

I do like to do the plating myself as I continue to learn from the process. And I appreciate the confirmations.

This one was tough as two stamps were very good matches with very similar frame line spacing and curvatures. It came down to 69L8 and 90L8, but I believe this is 69L8.


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United States
364 Posts
Posted 10/08/2022   10:39 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ioagoa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi 40yearBreak --

YEP -- 69L8 is what I came up with.

Great plating job on this one!

Regards // ioagoa

PS -- If you used the StampPlating copy of 69L8 as one of your reference copies -- you should also note that the stamp currently slotted as 48L8 on StampPlating is actually 69L8 -- so you can use that as an additional reference copy as well. (The owner of the site is aware of this and is in the process of correcting the error.)
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Edited by ioagoa - 10/08/2022 10:40 pm
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Netherlands
546 Posts
Posted 10/09/2022   5:05 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Dutch US Stamp Collector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi all,

some know me here but most will probably not. I am s dutch us stamp collector and in the last few months I have decided to shift focus from general us classic collecting to collecting the 3 c imperf and perfs only.

this also includes me making my fist steps into plating them.

below is I cover and I have got:
relief b, 2 innerlines, left one running up to high, 2 lines recut ULT
looks like a 10A impression

the 2 options I have found are 63L0 or 86R5E but I am not convinced to be honest.

can someone help me and point out were I went wrong so I can learn?




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