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Show Your US 1851-57 Imperforate Stamps

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Author Replies: 2,538 / Views: 121,580Next Topic
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Posted 11/23/2022   10:05 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add mootermutt987 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
stanshepp - that Rochester bar cancelled cover sure is a beauty! With that color and impression, I would certainly call it a 10A, as well. I guess you could plate it if you really want to nail it down. Being a left margin copy should make it easy. And since it is obviously a 10A (see what I did there?) that should also help to narrow it down further. If I saw that advertised (and priced) as an 11A, I would take a 'chance' on it 29 days out of 30.
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United States
201 Posts
Posted 11/23/2022   10:40 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stanshepp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I had a puzzle made from an image of this pair.

I'm thinking of making a collage of some of the images that I have - and making it into a puzzle.

This 'ROCHESTER' stamp will be on it.

Stan Shepp


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1985 Posts
Posted 11/25/2022   2:31 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Classic Coins to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
That's a gorgeous three-rows pair, Stan! Thanks for showing it.
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Posted 11/25/2022   2:31 pm  Show Profile Check rlsny's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add rlsny to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Type II - beautifully centered but a scissor cut top right. Unplated.
Previous owner marked it Plate 1E, but I have not attempted to plate. I see nothing to grab onto and I'm just not enough of a plater to even try. Please don't feel obligated to do so.


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Posted 11/25/2022   3:55 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Classic Coins to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
That's a beauty, rlsny! Nothing is jumping out at me, either, as far as plating marks.
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United States
1985 Posts
Posted 11/25/2022   4:18 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Classic Coins to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I picked this 11A up at a stamp show recently. It is from sheet position 83R5L, and it has a December 25 cancel.

The town appears to be Derby Vermont, as it seems to be a good match with Simpson 346. However, Simpson said this cancel was in blue, with a rarity rating of 6 (11 to 15 known), but the cancel appears black to me under lamp light. If anyone has any other ideas of what town it could be, please let me know.



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Posted 11/27/2022   2:26 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stanshepp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Classic Coins,

It looks OG-MNH, but the cert says 'Disturbed OG'.

If you look really closely, you can see little dots in the OG but at first glance - it looks OG-NH.

I used an image manipulation program to make it better fit a standard 1,000 piece puzzle size. If you look closely at this image, you can see the puzzle pieces.

After I assembled it, I lent/donated it to my local post office where it is hanging on their lobby wall. I get told often when I pick up my mail that they receive a lot of compliments on it.

Stan Shepp

PS, I think DERBY is right.


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Edited by stanshepp - 11/27/2022 2:30 pm
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Posted 11/29/2022   1:31 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Classic Coins to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
That's a very striking puzzle, Stan.

Thanks for your comment on the 83R5L cancel.
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1985 Posts
Posted 11/29/2022   1:34 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Classic Coins to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Here's another interesting cancel I found among my stamp show purchases this month. It's an 11A that I plated to 36L2L.

The cancel matches Simpson railroad tracing number 277 for OHIO & MISS R.R. (page 183). Simpson gave this a rarity number of 8, "very rare," meaning 4 to 6 recorded. The hand stamp is very favorably placed, I would say.



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Posted 11/29/2022   7:41 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stanshepp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I was looking at this recently acquired #10A and the color looked striking like a Copper Brown variety.

I know colors don't translate well on the various monitors, but I scanned it next to one of my Amonette color cards (the only one that I had with Copper Brown) so that it might be an apple to apple comparison.

To show how I scanned it, I have included several images. The first shows the stamp in question - and firstly, it has to be plated as "Plate 2 Early".

Secondly, it has to match the color in the bottom center of the card more so than it can match any of the other Orange Brown shades.

I then show how I scanned it all together, Amonette card next to the stamp on a black card.

Then I show how I cropped the questionable stamp and pasted over the Amonette color card between the two most likely candidates.
I thought to move it up a row to better compare to the four most likely candidates - and added a fourth scan.
Meh - I didn't think the quality came through, so I cropped it down a little more and added a 5th scan - same scan, just cropped differently.

For your information:
An Orange Brown #10A has a catalogue value of $150.
The Copper Brown shade has a catalogue value of $900.

I purchased this example for $25 ($27.15 w/ shipping) - so its not like I am "out" if it isn't Copper Brown.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/234784497114

I am open to your thoughts.

PS - this stamp does have a crease in the lower left corner.

Stan Shepp






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Edited by stanshepp - 11/29/2022 7:54 pm
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1985 Posts
Posted 12/01/2022   8:56 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Classic Coins to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Still finding some unusual cancels in the group of stamps I picked up at a November stamp show. Here are three with blue Proctorsville, Vermont hand stamps. It's like the previous owner of this group of stamps left some puzzle pieces for the next owner to put together.

The settlement of Proctorsville had a population of 454 in 2010 according to the census. I wonder what the population was in the 1850s.

The left stamp is position 60L1L. I modified a scan of the three to clarify the cancels.



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Posted 12/02/2022   5:10 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stanshepp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello all,

Here is a plating issue - I believe that I have this stamp properly narrowed down to 24L1E or 24L1i.

The date of use, Oct 28, 1851 (Interior date line) would lean me more towards the intermediate state.
The plating looks more like the Early state of the plate.

There aren't enough solid differences to make me conclude one way or the other.

Anyone here have an opinion?
Care to tell me how to tell the difference?

BTW,
The blue "MAD RIV.&LAK.ERIE R.R." does normally have a date stamp in the center. and while Simpson gives it a rarity of &, it is probably unique without the date slug.

Enjoy!

Stan Shepp



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Posted 12/02/2022   5:49 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stanshepp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Another Scott #10 on a 'MAD RIVER & LAKE ERIE RAILROAD' cover -

I didn't attempt to plate this one.

Just doing some scanning, sharing, filing of Orange Brown covers today.

Stan Shepp



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Posted 12/03/2022   3:58 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ioagoa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Stan --

Regarding your cover with the blue "MAD RIV.&LAK.ERIE R.R." CDS -- the one with the missing date slug -- and where the stamp has a straight-line "FREE" handstamp cancel -- I have not looked closely at your stamp -- but based on the GD positioning -- I think you probably meant 24R1E versus 24R1i (the old "left / right" transposition that all of us platers make from time to time).

Your stamp notwithstanding -- here are some general comments on separating out stamps from the Early versus the Intermediate states of Plate 1.

As an aside -- All of what I have to say on this subject is based on having looked at thousands of these stamps over many years -- and having been fortunate enough to have been mentored by a number of well-known platers. Still, everything is just my opinion. Others may have different opinions -- and should weigh in accordingly. Against that back-drop -- here goes:

Generally speaking -- The only difference between the Early and Intermediate states of the plate is due to re-entry. Consequently, determining the state of the plate often involves having a basic understanding of the re-entry production process -- and, likewise, being able to identify evidence of re-entry on a printed stamp. Often, this exercise requires having multiple reference copies (or high-resolution scans) of the applicable position from both states of the plate -- and then examining them closely to compare and identify the differences.

Sometimes the differences are obvious. For example -- many of the stamps in the top row were originally entered onto the Early state of the plate with one relief -- but then re-entered onto the Inter state of the plate with a different relief -- making it very easy to identify the state of the plate. On the other hand -- there are some positions where making the determination can be frustratingly difficult -- and in some cases, not possible.

Part of what makes the whole 1E versus 1i subject so complicated is that there are 4 factors at play -- First, there is the impact of re-entry (more on this below) -- but on top of that there are 3 other factors that can distort things -- namely differences in inking, impression, and plate wear.

By way of background -- When Chase started plating the 10/11 stamps, there wasn't much info available about how the plates were made. He was more or less "flying blind" when it came to telling the states apart. If you look at the Chase book, on pages 86 and 89, respectively, he states that "the plate of course showed no wear while in this state' (1 Early), and "the plate showed no wear while in this state" (1 intermediate). Of course, we now know that the reason the plate was re-entered is BECAUSE it got worn, as stamps from 1E and 1i sometimes show extreme plate wear.

From looking at a lot of Chase-plated stamps from 1E and 1i, it can be concluded that Chase believed a very worn stamp meant it was the intermediate state. Most of the Chase errors of plating on 1 Early and 1 Inter (as documented on the USPCS website) are all due to worn plate impressions. I think we'd need to see the actual stamps from the photos to really tell which state they are (color sometimes being a good guide). There is also the problem of how well the photos picked up the really fine detail of the engraved lines.

FYI -- Link to the listing of Chase plating errors on the USPCS website is here:

https://www.uspcs.org/stamps-covers...late-errors/

Bottom line -- with examples from 1E and 1i which are from worn plates, it becomes difficult to be sure of which state of the plate a stamp came from because the features which help us identify each state have mostly worn away. Additionally -- as noted above -- further complicating everything is that plating characteristics can be impacted (i.e., distorted) to varying degrees by differences in inking and impression.

Regarding differences in states due to re-entry -- one important aspect is what a re-entry does to existing recut lines. On 1E, for instance, FL's and many IL's were recut after the plate was made. If you think of these as various 'V' cuts into the plate (made with a graver), the wider (and deeper) the cut was, the more ink the grooves hold.

These recut grooves are deeper into the plate than the transferred design. As the plate wears, both get weaker, and the recuts tend to stand out more from the normal design.

Now what happens to the recut lines when the transfer roll re-enters the normal design? The recut lines tend to get a little pressed out. Some become quite faint. Additionally, the original (weak) FL's are again impressed into the plate, often not quite lining up with those lines recut initially, often resulting in some doubling of the FL's and/or IL's. You really see this on Plates 10 and 11, the 26A stamps, where there was a third entry and no recutting done on after the Early state.

Chase's comments about 1E and 1i being plated from each other are true. It is the bending of the recut lines which are unique enough on each state to identify the position (if not the state) in the majority of positions. Thus, he didn't have to find a multiple in each state in order to do the original reconstruction of 1E and 1i.

Bottom line -- differences in inking, impression, and plate wear not withstanding -- On Inter state the FL's, IL's, and other recuts are typically "weaker" and/or "fuzzier" in comparison to Early state. Likewise -- there may be some consistent doubling in the FL's and IL's (albeit usually very faint) on Inter state that is not present on Early state.

Other general differences between Early state and Inter state that often resulted from the re-entry process when Plate 1E became Plate 1i -- and can be very helpful (but not individually conclusive) in analyzing the state of the plate -- can include:

-- On Inter state -- the outer ring of dots in the ULR opposite the hypotenuse of the ULT are often "fatter" in comparison to Early state.

-- On Inter state -- if the stamp has a GD it will often be "fatter" in comparison to Early state.

-- On Inter state there is typically more color saturation in the triangles versus Early state -- but the clarity of the finely engraved lines of the triangles on Inter state is typically not as sharp as seen on Early state.

Again -- as noted above -- in analyzing the differences between the Early and Intermediate states of Plate 1, sound judgement must be exercised -- as the plating characteristics can be impacted (i.e., distorted) to varying degrees by differences in inking, impression, and plate wear.

Don't know if any of this helps you -- or just creates many more questions -- or both -- but it is nonetheless a summary of much of what I have learned over the years and hopefully is of some value to you and to the 3-cent plating community at large.

Regards // ioagoa
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Posted 12/03/2022   4:33 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stampcrow to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Ioagoa.., thank you for this and your many other posts in this thread!! You are very gracious with your time and knowledge.
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