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Show Your US 1851-57 Imperforate Stamps

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Posted 07/01/2020   7:04 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
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Posted 07/02/2020   10:08 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ioagoa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Here are two copies of the "right inner line down too far" variety of recutting on the 1851-1857 3 cent imperforate.

Both of these stamps are recut combinations showing:
recut #1 -- both inner lines recut
recut #11 --1 vertical line in the ULT
recut #25 -- RIL down too far

Regarding the RIL down too far, while 62R2E shows the variety nicely, Chase notes that 65R2E is a "remarkable example of the right inner line down too far, the line not stopping until it has reached a point opposite the bottom of the lower right diamond block, which it almost touches"

The first stamp is 62R2E and the second stamp is 65R2E.

Regards // ioagoa



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Posted 07/02/2020   12:16 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Classic Coins to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
ioagoa, Those are a couple of interesting recut examples that I haven't seen before! Thanks for showing them.

It looks to me that the RIFL on 65R2e does touch the lower right diamond block.
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Posted 07/02/2020   12:23 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Moyock13 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It does, actually looks like the RIL runs to the bottom of the LRDB
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Posted 07/02/2020   1:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ioagoa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
classic coins and Moyock13 --

I agree that on my copy of 65R2E it does appear that the RIL touches the entire right side of the LRDB -- but I think it might be due to differences in inking and impression between my stamp and whatever Dr. Chase was looking at when he wrote his book -- (as I think my stamp might be a touch over-inked). That said, the Lund copy of 65R2E on stampplating.com also looks like its RIL is touching the right side of the LRDB -- but the Chase photo stamp is a bit fuzzy in this area -- so hard to tell. In any event, I was quoting what Dr. Chase stated in his book about this position -- as it is the most striking example in terms of how far down the RIL actually runs. It would be interesting to see some other examples of this position if anybody has one to post?

Regards // ioagoa
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Posted 07/02/2020   3:46 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Moyock13 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Questions from a beginning plater:

1) What is the first assessment you do to get a general idea of what plate to start searching?

2) Recuts seem to be difficult to determine sometimes, how do you recognize frame line recuts and inner line recuts?

3) Once you've determined several options, what criteria do you use to zero in on a particular stamp?

4) Finally, what tips would you offer a beginner?

Thanks ya'll. Ken

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Posted 07/02/2020   4:51 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add tgswanner to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Great questions by Moyock13...I look forward to seeing these answers explained in our PLATING 101 webinar which will, hopefully, be in the near future. This could be an ongoing series of webinars as there are lots of topics to cover on the 3c issue.
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Posted 07/02/2020   6:13 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Classic Coins to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Moyock13, The basic plate identification guide on the following USPCS page is a great place to look for answers to question 1. Opening the links embedded in the chart should help with visualization.

https://www.uspcs.org/stamps-covers...2%a2-plates/

Once the general features of each plate are learned, a beginning plater should be able to narrow a stamp down to 3 plates or less with a quick check of the features.

Regarding recognizing frame line recuts (question 2), the frame lines on the 3-cent design were so weak by the time the design was entered into the plate by the transfer roll, that almost every top, bottom, or inner/outer side frame line you see on an 1851-57 3-cent imperforate stamp was strengthened by recutting to some extent (see minor exception below). The plate identification guide above provides more detail on which frame lines were recut on each plate.

Minor exception: Traces of the inner frame lines from the master die are visible on many positions, including some that are considered to be no-inner-frame-line positions.

The trace of an inner frame line visible to the right of the rosette on this stamp is from the master die, and it is not considered a recut. This is position 64L8 from a plate that had no inner frame line recuts.

Edit: Corrected the incorrect statement that the master die only had faint inner lines.


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Edited by Classic Coins - 07/02/2020 11:33 pm
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Posted 07/02/2020   7:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Classic Coins to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Ken, Regarding question 3, once you narrow down the possible plates by major features identified in the basic plate identification guide, you can use relief type, guide dots, triangle recuts, etc, to narrow down much further. The stampplating.com plating wizard is a great way to do this.

http://stampplating.com/wizards/create

If you're still left with several candidates, you can isolate the position using many other clues such as where the inner frame lines end, frame line spacing from the diamond blocks, frame line curves. etc.

Here's an example of some quite distinct side frame line curves in an image compressed vertically to 10 percent of its original size. I think it's interesting how the left inner frame line is separated from the tessellated work, but the RIFL is not.

Can anyone identify the position?



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Edited by Classic Coins - 07/02/2020 7:17 pm
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Posted 07/02/2020   7:31 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stampcrow to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Moyock13, on an experience scale of 1 - 10 with 1 being a new plater and 10 being where are experts on this site are, I'm a 4.

My reply to your second question is two fold.

First, Carroll Chase's comments and remarks on recuts. (must have)

Second, Winston Sinclair's comments, it takes the experience of looking at the stamps. (that's not even an accurate paraphrase but hopefully you get the idea)

These two things go together in my head. Carroll Chase for example, wrote about plate 5L stamps, "In general the recut lines are faint particularly the inner lines."
Then having experienced looking at a stamp that was clearly not orange brown but "seemed" to lack both inner lines!?... yup plate 5L.

So gaining a general knowledge of each plates characteristics combined with seeing hundreds and even thousands of these stamps will sometimes help you recognize a stamps plate.

As a level 4 plater, I still get things wrong all too often. Also I don't yet have all the general characteristics off the top of my head. So I keep Carroll Chase's book at hand and still refer to it often.
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Posted 07/02/2020   7:43 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stampcrow to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Here's a Plate 5L example that hopefully illustrates what I tried to say above.
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Posted 07/02/2020   9:21 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Classic Coins to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
stampcrow, your plate 5L stamp illustrates the thin/faint inner lines well.
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Edited by Classic Coins - 07/02/2020 9:22 pm
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Posted 07/02/2020   9:46 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Classic Coins to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Plating 101: Identifying plate 1 late impressions

When plate 1 was reworked into its third (late) state, the top of the upper label block and the top of the upper right diamond block were gouged out on the plate at almost all positions to deepen the recesses in these parts of the design. Short transfers on plate 1i (38L1i; previous page) were one reason why.

Plate 1L stamps will generally show more heavily cut frame lines than plate 2L and 3 stamps, but the gouging at top is normally the easiest way to identify a plate 1L impression. The depth of the gouging resulted in inconsistent inking. These traits can be very prominent on worn-plate impressions and printings with poor-quality ink.

Below are closeups of positions 53L1L, 49R1L, and 5R1L.

The full image of 49R1L shows part of the gouged label block and diamond block from the position below:


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Posted 07/02/2020   9:56 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Moyock13 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Holy Gouged Stamps, Batman!

Is that why the 8L1L I posted yesterday had the goofy URDB?

Classis Coins, Plating 101 is GREAT! Thank you!

And thank for answering my questions. Good info provided by you and stampcrow! Oh, and stampcrow on that scale I'm about a 0.5!
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Posted 07/02/2020   9:57 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Moyock13 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Holy Gouged Stamps, Batman!

Is that why the 8L1L I posted yesterday had the goofy URDB?

Classic Coins, Plating 101 is GREAT! Thank you!

And thank for answering my questions. Good info provided by you and stampcrow! Oh, and stampcrow on that scale I'm about a 0.5!
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