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Show Your US 1851-57 Imperforate Stamps

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Posted 07/15/2020   11:13 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Moyock13 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Classic Coins, would your DSLR camera with the macro lens capture the "india paper"? I'm curious to see this.
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Posted 07/15/2020   12:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ioagoa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Sinclair2010 --

First -- allow me to say that I am relatively new to SCF -- and while I have followed most of the threads for around a year now, I only joined up a few months ago -- and admittedly, I have never really gone back and read much of anything prior to roughly July of 2019 -- so the link to your 2017 thread discussion regarding part india paper versus a similarly thin, but not part india paper variety was a very interesting read for me. One of these days I need to search through the SCF archives for other threads that might interest me (i.e., pretty much anything having to do with the 1851-1857 3 cent stamp).

In summary -- between the 68-69R1E scan you posted -- and the linked thread that you provided -- you have answered pretty much 95% of the question I was asking -- so no need for a lengthy reply.

I do have two clarifying questions though -- which I think (hope) should be able to be quickly answered --

First -- the paper in the 68-69R1E scan you posted looks so thin that it is a bit translucent -- whereas stampcrow's back scan looks more opaque as is typically seen. As an aside, your pair also has the "yellowish tinge" noted by Chase whereas stampcrow's stamp is the "dead white" color most often seen. That said, as per your comments in your 2017 thread, appearances can be deceiving -- and the only way to identify either of the thin paper varieties for sure is to have the stamp in hand and gauge the paper thickness with a micrometer. In any event, regarding stampcrow's 73R1 -- I presume you were looking for visual evidence of one of the two "thin paper" varieties that you discussed back in your 2017 thread -- which could be either the part india variety -- or the thin, but not part india, paper variety. Would that be correct?

Second -- I am no expert when it comes to the part india paper variety -- or any other thin paper varieties for that matter -- but I know that the literature says that "part india" is only seen from plate 1E -- and am curious if, based on your experience, the same holds true for the similarly thin, but not part india, paper that was the subject of discussion in your 2017 thread?

Again, I very much appreciate your reply, the back scan of 68-69R1E, and the insights gleaned from reading your 2017 thread.

Regards // ioagoa

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Posted 07/15/2020   12:20 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stampcrow to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Winston, I figured that's why you wanted to see the back but didn't want to assume. Me asking and commenting about it would've just convoluted the point. It was easier to post the scan.

For my own notes I call what you show above "bleed through".
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Posted 07/15/2020   12:27 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ioagoa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi again Sinclair2010 --

Please disregard my last post -- as in re-reading your 8/10/2017 post you have answered my question.

The relevant excerpt from your 8/10/2017 post was as follows:


Quote:
The thin paper stamps (both varieties) that we are talking about here only come from the 3c Plate 1E or some early 12c 1851 printings.


Regards // ioagoa

edited to correct a spelling error
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Edited by ioagoa - 07/15/2020 12:28 pm
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Posted 07/15/2020   12:45 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Classic Coins to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Classic Coins, would your DSLR camera with the macro lens capture the "india paper"? I'm curious to see this.


Great idea. I'll give that a try today or tomorrow.
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Posted 07/15/2020   12:48 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Classic Coins to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
ioagoa, that red Cleveland cancel on your 24L1e is gorgeous! I like the way Washington's face isn't obscured by the CDS.
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Posted 07/15/2020   5:36 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Classic Coins to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I took some DSLR photos of my 23L1e yellowish OB (shown here) and other imperforates today. 23LL1e has two lines recut in the UL triangle.

Moyock13 observed on page 43 of this thread that the horizontal lines in the LL triangle extended beyond the curved lines in the triangle. This composite photo shows that at least some horizontal lines extend beyond the curved lines in the UL triangle, but apparently not in the UR triangle.

The print quality of this stamp is excellent overall, with clean edges in the diamond and label blocks, and the finest details of the rosettes showing well.

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Posted 07/15/2020   7:49 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Moyock13 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Classic Coins, I love the detail you can with the DSLR. Is there an engraves slip at the bottom of the U pictured on the left?
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Posted 07/15/2020   8:02 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Classic Coins to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
As requested, here is a composite DSLR photo showing closeups of the back my part India paper 23L1e yellowish OB in the left half of the image. The right half of the image is the back of a stamp that I believe to be another yellowish OB, but a later printing. The second stamp is unplated.

Scans of the two stamps are below.

I would appreciate comments, as I haven't studied the papers of this issue to any great length.


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Posted 07/15/2020   8:06 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Classic Coins to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Moyock13, I don't know what's going on with the U on the 23L1e, but I doubt it's an engraver's slip.
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Posted 07/15/2020   8:28 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Moyock13 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
My guess, the 23L1e was engraved on a Monday after a hard weekend! =)

Classic Coins, that is a great composite. You can see particles of bamboo in the paper weave of the 23L1e. I also find the difference in the paper composition between the two stamps interesting.

The one thing I never consider is the differences in the paper stamps are printed on. And never having the benefit of seeing the differences. This is pretty spectacular. Thanks for taking the time to shoot the composites, Classic Coins.
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Posted 07/15/2020   8:56 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Classic Coins to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I started a thread in 2017 on quality printings of this issue, showing examples of yellowish rose red stamps.

AJ Valente had this to say about the high quality of the yellowish rose red printings resulting from a change in paper:


Quote:
As far as the 1856 printings are concerned, a new plant manager, Charles Steel. Steel, was hired in 1855. His task was to improve the state of the stamps which had gradually fallen into decline. According to information supplied by the Smithsonian, Mr. Steel sought to re-introduce plate paper, and that's what resulted in the '56 RR printings.

http://goscf.com/t/55014&whichpage=4#529469
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Edited by Classic Coins - 07/15/2020 8:59 pm
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Posted 07/15/2020   9:43 pm  Show Profile Check sinclair2010's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add sinclair2010 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Ioagoa and others, Neither of the items that I showed are on part India or thin paper. The PSE cert is wrong and so was Ashbrook. The stamp with the PSE cert is the most deceiving but is on a paper of normal thickness, among other "normal" characteristics. It is just that some Plate 1E printings have a certain look to them. The appearance of the stamp with the PSE cert causes a special problem but in general the thin paper/part India stamps can be identified from afar. That's how I usually do it.

I suspect there is as much bamboo in the so-called part India stamps as there is Vermillion pigment in the OB stamps.

I am not a big believer in there being two different types of thin paper stamps. I prefer to just call them thin paper stamps but I have never been much of a marketer. It is worth noting that the paper of 12c stamps on part India is pretty white. The supposed yellowish tint of the paper on 3c stamps is probably from the printing ink coupled with certain variables in the printing process that is unique to the early 3c printings. There is a reason why some of them have that look that I have tried to show.
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Posted 07/15/2020   10:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stampcrow to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Gary, that was an excellent thread but I still have some issues with some of the assertions that AJ made to seem as facts.


Quote:
According to information supplied by the Smithsonian, Mr. Steel sought to re-introduce plate paper, and that's what resulted in the '56 RR printings.


A letter stating he "sought to re-introduce" isn't proof of successfully doing so.
Having stamps produced with great impressions doesn't prove that Mr. Steel was successful either.

Edit: I assume it was a letter in which Mr. Steel expressed his wishes.
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Edited by stampcrow - 07/15/2020 10:19 pm
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Posted 07/15/2020   10:53 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ioagoa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Sinclair2010 --

Thank you again for all of your insights and clarifications regarding the various paper varieties that have been the subject of recent discussion.

As I mentioned in one of my prior posts -- I am no expert when it comes to paper varieties of the 1851-1857 3 cent issue -- in fact, I am probably a novice in this particular area of study.

My primary areas of interest and study of the issue are in determining the plate position -- and in the area of color study -- both of which, to some degree, naturally overlap into other areas of study associated with the issue. For example -- and in the immediate case -- potentially distinguishing between 1E and 1i based on a specific variety of paper.

On the heels of your request for a back scan -- all of my recent posts on the subject of paper varieties have been from the perspective of a plater -- challenged in making a determination between 1E and 1i for stampcrow's 73R1.

Again -- thank you for all of your thoughts, comments, and insights on this subject -- all of which have given me new things to think about and consider.

Regards // ioagoa
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Edited by ioagoa - 07/15/2020 10:59 pm
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