Stamp Community Family of Web Sites
Thousands of stamps, consistently graded, competitively priced and hundreds of in-depth blog posts to read
Stamp Community Forum
 
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some stamps?
Our stamp forum is completely free! Register Now!

Washington 5c Blue 10.5 Perf

Next Page    
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 21 / Views: 973Next Topic
Page: of 2
Valued Member

India
21 Posts
Posted 05/23/2020   1:15 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add miacon to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Can there be a Washington 5c Blue with 10.5 perf ( Flat Plate) ?
Scott does not mention any. The perfs listed by Scott are 12x12, 11x11, 10x10 and a rare 12x10. Theoretically speaking, one cannot rule out the possibility of finding one, as the ones listed are after all the ones which are known from postal records or the ones which have been found by collecters like the 12x10 mentioned above or the 10 perf on one side bottom /top.
Though the US postal authorities have traditionally preferred to keep the perforations in complete numbers like a 12 or a 11 or a 10, it is found that half perfs with 10.5 or 11.5 have been used by them in many of the later issues lending credence to the fact that half perfs were in fact used.
It is also to be appreciated that a 0.5 difference in perf is a very fine difference and it could have well have been misjudged on the perforation gauge. But, if the same lends itself to a confirmation of 10.5 using a Vernier caliper, it is more reliable.
I have been collecting Washington -Franklin's for the past about 12 years. I have now discovered in my collection, a copy of the Washington 5c Blue 10.5 perf.
Experts on Washington-Franklins are requested to throw some light on the above subject. Their views, however critical, are welcome and appreciated.
Srivatsan, Mumbai, India.
Send note to Staff

Pillar Of The Community
United States
6798 Posts
Posted 05/23/2020   1:22 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Petert4522 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
There can be and they have been shown on this forum. They are called "changeling" - something caused them to change like a chemical or light

Peter

Welcome here!
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by Petert4522 - 05/23/2020 1:23 pm
Valued Member
United States
432 Posts
Posted 05/23/2020   1:34 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Rhett to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I don't think any postal records support the use by the BEP of a perforator that produced 10.5 perforations during the 3rd Bureau Issue era. That said, I am not an expert on this and would like to hear what such experts would say about this. My opinion is it did not happen and that this is probably a reperfed example. A pic would be helpful in that regard.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
India
21 Posts
Posted 05/23/2020   1:45 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add miacon to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Peter. It does throw up an interesting possibility of a changeling caused due to some external factors. But it is to be added here, that notwithstanding such a possibility, stamp looks fresh, clear and uniform in it's 10.5 perf all around its 4 sides.

Another matter of discussion, is the rounding up system of perfs adopted by specific catalogues. SG rounds it up to the nearest half perf, for instance, a 10.25 is considered as 10, 10.25 to 10.75 is treated as 10.5 and 10.75 and above is considered as 11. Going by other US stamp issues, Scott does consider and list 0.5 perf variants and in the instant case it is a clear 10.5 all around.

Experts are welcome to offer some illumination to the above topic.

Thanks, Srivatsan.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
2772 Posts
Posted 05/23/2020   2:20 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It is difficult to shed much meaningful light without a scan of your stamp, which would be very helpful to the discussion.

The Scott catalog rounds up/down. The US perfs are not exactly 10, 11, or 12.

Also consider using a stamp of known perforation rate as a gauge instead of a traditional perforation gauge.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1374 Posts
Posted 05/23/2020   8:47 pm  Show Profile Check cfrphoto's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add cfrphoto to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Facts to keep in mind:

A perforation gauge is not a measuring device. It is a go/no go gauge to determine how many complete (and half) perforations fit between a pair of lines 2 centimeters apart. The concept of "perforation gauge" was invented by stamp collectors.

The builders of US perforating equipment used English measure, not metric.

Line perforators consisted of a cylinder with rows of pins around a cylinder and a second female cylinder to provide a paper path. Spacing of perforation pins was determined by how many pins would fit equally spaced around the circumference of the cylinder. Changing the number of pins would change pin spacing, as determined the size of the cylinder.

US rotary coil perforators were perforated using a drum perforator with pins arranged in parallel rows around a cylinder. These perforators presented a different set of problems for philatelists, some not well understood. For additional details, APS members can attend a session on Monday June 22 as well as a session on Monday June 17 about expertizing perforations.

https://stamps.org/learn/on-the-roa...mmer-seminar
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
India
21 Posts
Posted 05/24/2020   01:01 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add miacon to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Rhett for your valuable views . As we have often seen in the past , one-off finds may not have postal records to corroborate it . They happen to overcome some urgencies or exigencies and are more of stop-gap arrangements . Nevertheless , we have valuable information from you stating that BEP records do not mention about such usage .

Then the question is how does it exist ?

Here , we could discuss the possibility that it could be a reperfed stamp . I submit , I am not an expert on reperfs . Is it possible to have been reperfed when the margins on the steam on all four sides is pretty decent in width ...? Perhaps yes or perhaps no .

We shall take a look at this possibility a little while later once I am able to post a proper scan of the stamp . (Unfortunately not able to do it now becoz of Covid 19 lockout conditions. )

Regards , Srivatsan .
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
India
21 Posts
Posted 05/24/2020   01:05 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add miacon to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks John for your reply . Will post a scan copy of the stamp later . Unfortunately not able to do it now becoz of the Covid 19 lockdown conditions .

Thanks for the other information you have provided .

Regards , Srivatsan .
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
India
21 Posts
Posted 05/24/2020   01:14 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add miacon to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Dear Clark ,

Many thanks for bringing out the facts so succinctly . Your profile on Clark Philatelics say that you are a Washington- Franklin expertiser , which means you know a lot much more than probably others on these issues . Not to be belittling others knowledge , which I humbly welcome .

You have mentioned that the US postal authorities followed British measures and not metrics . Could you please elaborate this for me , as I am not able to fathom it's import . .

Regards , Srivatsan .
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
India
21 Posts
Posted 05/25/2020   12:48 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add miacon to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Furthermore , I was ruminating the possibility that the Perforation Gauge , the very basis of this measurement conundrum , could be a non-standard one perhaps capable of producing unreliable results .
However , on afterthought , since I have measured more than a 1000 W-F stamps with the same measuring gauge and in all cases of a Washington 5c Blue it has uniformly returned a 12x12 , 11x11 or a 10x20 , the chances of it returning a non-standard result in just one particular case does not arise , logically speaking .

Regards , Srivatsan
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
United States
432 Posts
Posted 05/25/2020   11:17 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Rhett to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Srivatsan, in answer to your question "Is it possible to have been reperfed when the margins on the steam on all four sides is pretty decent in width ...?", there is a 5 cent blue imperforate stamp of this design from which your stamp could have easily been manufactured by creating perf 10.5 perforations on all sides. That imperforate stamp (Scott 347) is a flat plate printing on doubleline watermarked paper. If your stamp is not a flat plate printing on doubleline watermarked paper that particular method of fakery can probably be disregarded, although monkeying with a jumbo coil or straight edge stamp is another but less likely possibility. Please do post a scan (front and back of stamp) when you can as that will assist the experts here greatly in helping you with this.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by Rhett - 05/25/2020 11:18 am
Valued Member
India
21 Posts
Posted 05/25/2020   12:22 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add miacon to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Rhett , many thanks for your deep knowledgeable observations . Yes , it is surely a possibility .
The stamp in question is a Flat Plate . Allow me to check whether it is a double-line watermark and revert to you .

Warm Regards ,
Srivatsan .

Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1374 Posts
Posted 05/26/2020   11:34 pm  Show Profile Check cfrphoto's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add cfrphoto to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
the US postal authorities followed British measures and not metrics . Could you please elaborate this for me , as I am not able to fathom it's import.


The perforation gauge or odontometer was invented by Jacques Legrand, one of the first collectors of French stamps, in 1866.The gauging distance, 2 centimeters, was based on the Metric system used in France. Perforators in the United States were built using English measure (inches). Richard Kiusalas copyrighted the US Multigauge in 1965 after realizing that perforation spacing measured to the nearest one thousandths of an inch was more effective than attempting metric approximations.



Using a perforation gauge is second or third best. The most effective way to check perforations is to use another stamp aligning the perforations tip to tip starting at a corner. If the perforation tips are not aligned at the other end of the row, they are likely different. The Kiusalas gauge distinguishes between flat plate perf 10-79 and rotary press perf 10-80. Lay down a perf 10 rotary coil and a perf 10 flat plate stamp and the difference should be apparent.

Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
India
21 Posts
Posted 05/27/2020   03:51 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add miacon to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Dear CFR ,

My God ! What amazing knowledge and understanding of postal history and processes used ! Many thanks .

Regards , Srivatsan .
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
India
21 Posts
Posted 05/27/2020   06:27 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add miacon to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Dear CFR ,

Is there any place from where I could get the Kusalas perforation gauge ?? Will be thankful .

Regards , Srivatsan.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
3257 Posts
Posted 05/27/2020   08:23 am  Show Profile Check jogil's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add jogil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply


It can be hard to get an original U.S. Kiusalas perforation gauge. A copy of this gauge is found in the Precision US Specialty Multi-Gauge which includes many more helpful things in it.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by jogil - 05/27/2020 08:30 am
Page: of 2 Previous TopicReplies: 21 / Views: 973Next Topic  
Next Page
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.


Go to Top of Page
Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Stamp Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2020 Stamp Community Family - All rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Stamp Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Privacy Policy / Terms of Use    Advertise Here
Stamp Community Forum © 2007 - 2020 Stamp Community Forums
It took 0.22 seconds to lick this stamp. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05