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Scott #115 Reperfed?

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Posted 07/06/2020   11:05 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add widglo46 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
My intention was for this discussion to be more centered around what constitutes reliable criteria to determine reperforation, and not the credibility of PSAG certs. I posted the cert because I think it lends weight to the opinion that the stamp has NOT been reperforated, but I still need an explanation why.

The certificate for this stamp is typical; there is no mention of the uneven depth of the bottom perfs, so I don't know that they even concerned the examiner at all. This is something that frustrates me with all of the certifying agencies - none of them provide a work sheet with their certificates. I'm not sure why they don't do it, because it would only seem to add to their value and credibility. I keep saying it, but I wish someone would begin issuing stamp certificates that were more like a GIA diamond certificate - with measurements, identification of all faults (even those the PSE calls "extremely minor faults"), and subjective assessments of perforations, color, freshness, gum, etc. I can't believe that it would be so hard to do, and it would essentially eliminate the need for numeric grading.
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Posted 07/06/2020   3:58 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add funcitypapa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Quote: "it would eliminate the need for grading"—no it won't; there's money to be made in them thar hills, both for the certifiers, auction houses and ultimately sellers. Years ago I had an incident with the PF regarding an unused 67 buff that came back as genuine cancellation removed. I called the PF and did speak to the expertizer who in response to my question as to where on the stamp the supposed removed cancellation existed and was told that the worksheet was blank. When I asked for a copy of the worksheet I was denied on the basis of "confidentiality" which I thought was odd since I paid for the opinion. Imagine getting a home inspection and being denied a copy of the report. Bill Weiss, god rest his soul, commonly would list "tiny faults," "very tiny fault," etc without being specific on his opinions.
So when you say you did not list this thread seeking opinions regarding the credibility of PSAG certs, that's fine, but you got several unsolicited responses anyway. Those of us who have dealt with certs and the certifying organizations for a long time have thoughts about the subject whether we say them publicly or not. And this is not limited to collectors. Just ask yourself how many Weiss, PSAG or APEX certified stamps graded or appear to grade 90 or higher are offered at an auction like Siegel without an accompanying PSE or PF cert? Do you think this is an accident?
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Edited by funcitypapa - 07/06/2020 4:00 pm
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Posted 07/06/2020   5:20 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
And I might add that Rupp tries his best to not deal in anything with a PSAG cert.
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Posted 07/06/2020   7:13 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add widglo46 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Did something I wrote sound like a defense of the PSAG? I'm not a complete novice, and I'm well aware that PSAG certs are viewed by the market with skepticism, to put it mildly. I don't, however, think the PF or the PSE are doing the hobby a great service with their certificates either. Market prices are now clumped around SMQ prices, and that just doesn't make any sense at all. We all know that condition within a given grade can vary very significantly. I'll continue to push for much more information on certs.

You are right that it is all about making as much money as possible off trusting collectors. Caj Brejtfus at the PSE has told me flat out that it is dealers that oppose most strongly to more information on certs, and graded PSAG certs is just another way these same dealers are using to deceive collectors.

On the question about recognizing certs less than 5 years old - as far as I know, none of the major auction houses list the PSAG as one of the certifying agencies to which the rule applies.
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Posted 07/06/2020   7:20 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Andyrich74 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Widglo, for better or worse certs seem to be a hot topic here as of late and for good reason in my personal estimation. To answer your question, I don't think it is a re-perf, but will also add the caveat that I'm just using my own two eyes. Caper's photo is quite helpful as well.

I've also found (and have thankfully not been burned) that when something looks good to be true, it usually is. When occasionally bidding on items without or with a certificate, I simply bid/buy accordingly. If I think a stamp has been re-perfed, I bid as if it is. Lose some because of it, but would rather pass than get burned. Also why my purchases of US stamps have gone to a couple a year and world wide has become more of a focus.
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Posted 07/06/2020   8:00 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add widglo46 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Lots of topics in this discussion!

Re: Caper123's photo - The perfs appear pretty accurately spaced except for the ones on the right side of the bottom margin. These are precisely the one's most questionable. Also, Caper123 has not held the frame lines parallel, so the deeper perf indentations on the right side of the bottom margin aren't apparent. Can there be another explanation for the deeper perfs?
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Posted 07/06/2020   10:18 pm  Show Profile Check eyeonwall's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add eyeonwall to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
"I would interested to know how other board members reconcile their acceptance of PSE certs pre Murphy and Sherman since the signer of most of the early PSE certs is the same as the referenced PSAG cert—although I note the form of the signature has changed."

Age of the person seems to have had an effect, plus isn't he now just a one man committee?
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Posted 07/07/2020   07:14 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add funcitypapa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I wouldn't know about the constitution of the PSAG expert committe; I was merely referring to the Walt days of the PSE when the certificates listed the three experts but was signed by Shoemaker as "J Randall"
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Posted 07/07/2020   10:08 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add usinbritain to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
funcitypapa,

I've known Randy since I worked in Miami in the mid '90s and have always been satisfied with his work.

His pre-PSE stamp company was known as "J Randall".

Here's a list of his experts - some of the best in their areas of expertise (full disclosure: most of them are clients and/or friends of mine)

https://www.stampauthentication.com/our-experts

Steve Taylor


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Posted 07/07/2020   11:02 am  Show Profile Check sinclair2010's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add sinclair2010 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
All of the expertizing organizations advertise a great list of outside experts but they are not used for every submission... not even close.
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Posted 07/07/2020   11:41 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add usinbritain to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Sinclair2010, I agree that not every expert is consulted on every item.

Was providing information to previous poster who didn't know who is on PSAG's list of experts.

Further disclosure: I've reviewed USA items submitted to the Royal Philatelic Society London and the BPA ("After Consultation" on their certificates).

Steve Taylor
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Posted 07/07/2020   1:40 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add funcitypapa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Stephen: thank you for your information but I am not a novice and was well aware of who Shoemaker lists as experts both for PSAG and previously for PSE. Many of these names were commonly listed as experts examining an item in the old days of PSE when you had the postcard type of certificate with the vivid color photo of the stamp in question and the opinion, date, list of examine experts and Shoemakers signature on the back.

You don't need to convince me of Shoemakwr's expertize; I wasn't questioning it and I didn't start this post. Nor did I make any opinion regarding the credibility or reliability of PSAG opinions, even though others did indirectly. I did raise the question, still valid in my mind, and not really answered, is how board members who do not trust or utilize PSAG reconcile the apparent incongruity of trusting PSE opinions historically and not trusting PSAG opinions now when the senior expert for both organizations is the same man?

I think that there exists, among a segment of the collecting universe, the idea that PSE's expertizing philosophy particularly with regards to numerical grading may have had an economic motive as a way of generating additional income by this new spin on things, whereas the PF was thought of as more scholarly and not economically driven. Wasn't it originally a derivative of CCNY or SUNY? Now of course, everyone is in the grading game if only from the standpoint of keeping up with the Joneses. We can disagree as to whether this is good or bad for the hobby.

No question however that some responders on this thread have a problem with PSAG. It would be interesting to know why but I am not naive enough to expect anyone to really tell us.

Finally, I am familiar with your input on the Frajola board. Certainly this board and that one are different.
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Edited by funcitypapa - 07/07/2020 1:43 pm
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Posted 07/07/2020   2:17 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
A well respected dealer and philatelist that I work with building my US collection is not a fan of PSAG certs because he has had more than one opinion subsequently determined to be erroneous or a numerical grade lowered by PSE/PF. Of course the same can be said in regards to PSE vs PF at times but he tries to avoid handling material that has only a PSAG cert. There has to be a reason that Siegel only recognizes the PSE and PF in their Terms & Conditions. Doesn't there?
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Posted 07/07/2020   2:34 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add funcitypapa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Rodgcam: I suspect you refer to Mr Rupp.
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Posted 07/07/2020   6:57 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I will give an example. I purchased a Scott US 313 at a Kelleher auction last year that had a clean PSAG cert from 2012 Graded 80J. I sent it to PSE for a new cert and it came back as "regummed with four repaired perf tips at the left" with a grade of 50. Kelleher took it back.
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