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How Would You Grade This 1c Franklin?

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Posted 08/04/2020   9:58 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Andyrich74 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Not an expert on grading, but I'd say the most important question is are you happy with the stamp? If it gives you joy, a sense of pride, fulfillment or happiness then you have a good stamp.

Very nice stamp!
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Posted 08/04/2020   10:07 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Except for one, all of the examples shown have better centering then the original stamp. Not hugely better, but better.
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Posted 08/05/2020   07:27 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add funcitypapa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Agree completely with revcollector. The fact that we are quibbling as to whether the index stamp is an 85 or 90 points out the silliness of the grading game. And make no mistake about it—it is a game.
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Posted 08/05/2020   08:04 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add littleriverphil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Secret mark, so 156 or 182 (sold as 182, but I'm not sure and I lack comparison examples)


Going by the sharper perfs on the stamp with the geometric cancel, it is hard paper, and the Chicago canceled stamp has fibrous perf tips, a softer paper.
So it looks like you've got a comparison now. Hold them up to bright light.
Both very nice.
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Edited by littleriverphil - 08/05/2020 08:07 am
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Posted 08/05/2020   08:21 am  Show Profile Check sinclair2010's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add sinclair2010 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I wouldn't be very surprised if they both look similar when held up to light. Hopefully we get to see that.
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Posted 08/05/2020   7:04 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
"The fact that we are quibbling as to whether the index stamp is an 85 or 90 points out the silliness of the grading game. And make no mistake about it—it is a game." Unlike arguing over Fine vs Very Fine.
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Posted 08/05/2020   8:19 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add funcitypapa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
You can be sarcastic rodgcam if you want but nobody is strategizing about whether to grade a stamp that is likely to receive an 85 or less unless you are talking about a very rare stamp. The stamp market quarterly and auction realizations show clearly that the bell starts to ring when you are talking about grades of 90, 95, 98, 100 and jumbo. The price lists of your friend Christopher Rupp and his former associate, Alan Cohen, clearly show this as well. But I appreciate the fact that you find my statement about "the game" so hilarious. I guess you probably think that coin collectors cracking coins, detailed or not, out of ICG and ANACS slabs and resubmitting them hoping to pass over to a NGC or PCGS holder is also a myth?
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Edited by funcitypapa - 08/05/2020 8:22 pm
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Posted 08/05/2020   8:55 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Fun Papa - Don't get your knickers in a knot my friend. Nobody has ever been able to explain unemotionally to me why grading is such a scourge other than frothing about "rare multiples lost forever" which may be the case at times but hardly accounts for the thousands of graded stamps that enjoy a healthy trading environment. If you are upset that someone would have the gall to assign a grading value to a 156 or a 184 or a 634 or a whatever simply continue trading in VG or Fine or VF or XF or...…. I will tell you this as fact, if you sell your Grade 95 278 (really just pick a catalog number) you will do much better then if you sell your XF (be prepared to argue over that assignation all day long).

As far as Christopher goes he is an astute businessman as well as a top shelf philatelist and is doing what you are supposed to do, provide your clients what they want. Simple really. I do the same thing. If I come across a stamp that can get a high grade and I can realize multiples of what I would have without said grade am I supposed to take some phony moral high ground and just forget the whole SMQ thing? Why? Always lots of chatter about "subjective standards", "artificial prices" and my own favorite "a cancer on philately" but it is all emotional with no meat behind the argument. Grading has been a successful endeavor, it is not "bad" just because it is highly transactional, it is not "terrible" just because it rubs one the wrong way and it most definitely here to S-T-A-Y.

Cheers
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Posted 08/05/2020   10:12 pm  Show Profile Check eyeonwall's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add eyeonwall to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
"I wouldn't be very surprised if they both look similar when held up to light. Hopefully we get to see that."

Indeed they do both look similar.I don't have the ability to show them held to light (just like I couldn't show it in fluid). Anyway, I do have a bunch of the different 3c that I have ID'ed and the soft paper on those look toned when held to light, but the 1c stamps in question do not have this toning, hence my leaning to 156.
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Posted 08/06/2020   07:56 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add funcitypapa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Rog: I don't have my knickers in a knot, I am really responding more to the disrespect emoji that you attached to your post as if what I was suggesting was ridiculous. I don't see any reason for snarkiness on this forum. I have probably been collecting and dealing with Rupp as long as you have, if not longer. I agree with everything you said about him. His business was fine prior to grading and continues to be fine with the introduction of grading. But I think his philosophy of offering material, whom to get certs from etc has changed. He's playing the game. If you discuss how to offer your wares at Siegel, Scott Trepel's strategy is similar. He also is playing a form of game. I'm not criticizing either of them or you—just calling it what it is—a game. The game doesn't have to be good or bad but it is what it is.

In fact it is a bit of a game where the object is no longer collecting stamps but collecting graded certs, which is fine with me as long as we accept the obvious that this is not really about stamps but really only about money
We have all at times scratched our heads trying to understand the mindset of an expertizer giving a grade of 90 to a perfectly centered stamp with good color and impression and no faults listed or a stamp that anyone can see is off center with a short perf grading 95 with no detail. When you come across such items you conclude that grading is still subjective and not really the science it is advertised to be. I think many of us feel that the opinion is often influenced by who the submitter is and the amount of business sent to that company and that submissions are not really blinded. I can't prove this fact but I know that it is a widely held suspicion amongst collectors. Again part of the game.
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Posted 08/06/2020   3:56 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Papa - We have to avoid the prison of two ideas. Collecting stamps with graded certs does not mean that the collector is all about money and not the stamps. As far as it being a "game" goes I don't really know what that means. If it means making a system work for you that used to be called being business smart and it was a good thing. Times have changed. Filling out ones income taxes can be a game. Discounts and coupons at the grocery store can be a game. Peddling a non-graded stamp can be a game when it comes to what its grade is in different eyes.

Sorry about using the "laughter" emoji. I did not realize its power. It should be canceled perhaps. I will start a twitter campaign.

Cheers
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Posted 08/06/2020   4:47 pm  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Nobody has ever been able to explain unemotionally to me why grading is such a scourge other than frothing…


rogdam,
Actually you made the argument yourself when you pointed out that there is no single grading standard. This is the issue, there are competing grading standards and methodologies. This greatly diminishes the value of grading. Additionally, grading organizations are not willing to publish their entire grading criteria nor will they publish the evolution of their criteria. Yes, some have publishes parts of their criteria but I do not think I have every seen anything that covers natural inclusions, cancels, shifts/centering on multi-pass stamps, etc. I assume that grading organizations feel that publishing criteria would be a competitive disadvantage since others would be able to simply copy what they do. But in my opinion the lack of criteria transparency is a problem.

I think that grading needs a published 'open source' standard document, something that all grading entities would adhere to; the criteria should come from a group that does not have a vested interest in a grading business. If this were in place, grading would stand a much better chance at being widely accepted as opposed to the current of the murky and confusing state of affairs it is now.
Don
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Posted 08/06/2020   5:17 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Don - PSE publishes a lengthy doc with their criteria but a universal standard would be great even if their are only three orgs that engage in grading and only one of them dominates the field. It would still come down to humans implementing and interpreting the criteria and that will always introduce subjective behavior. Still beats arguing over Fine vs VF in my book. Sure, you can argue over 85 vs 90 but like it or not their is more behind the number than a feeling.

My comments about the frothing are directed at comparisons of grading to "cancer" and so on. Really?

Rajah
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Posted 08/06/2020   6:05 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add shermae to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
...an expertizer giving a grade of 90 to a perfectly centered stamp with good color and impression and no faults listed or a stamp that anyone can see is off center with a short perf grading 95 with no detail.


This to me is really the problem. There are no standards. And as we have all seen, this is also affecting certs of all kinds where graders cannot even agree on which edge, IF ANY, has been reperfed.

I recently saw a Project Mercury stamp with a 100 grade selling for well more than $200 on Hipstamp. Silliness.


IT'S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY
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Edited by shermae - 08/06/2020 6:16 pm
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Posted 08/06/2020   9:26 pm  Show Profile Check eyeonwall's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add eyeonwall to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
And this thread has officially been hijacked by yet another in a series of endless debates over whether grading is good or bad.

Meanwhile I am still hoping to hear back from John Becker who said he was going to be a contrarian without saying in which direction.
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