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Stampless Cover 1864 - What Way Took This Cover?? And What Cancel Of San Francisco??

 
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Valued Member
Germany
27 Posts
Posted 08/15/2020   08:16 am  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add grisuhh62 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hi,
I have some questions about this cover. I ahve only the image from the front. It is from an danish auction house in the internet.




First I thought (I hoped?) it is a shipmail cover. But I realized very quickly it isnt. Because in the ASCC, fourth edition, volume two I havent found the San Francisco postmark as one for incoming shipmail. Also I didnt found it in the "US Incoming Steamship Mail 1847-1875". I looked in ASCC, Volume I about the cancellations from San Francisco. I found none that realy fit. Always something doesnt fit to this cancel. There is only one for 1864. But that in the literature has no "CAL" and should have a statement about debit/credit.
So my questions are: where find I this SF cancel and some information. What way took the cover from Panama (or from further away?). The auction house write, the cover is originated in Chile??.
Hopefully
Juergen
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
529 Posts
Posted 08/15/2020   08:43 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add SPQR to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Juergen - it is an incoming steamship letter. There is probably a Chile origin postmark on the back. It was paid 1 shilling (the red crayon 1/- marking) for the British PMSC steamship to Panama. There is a Panama transit marking under the SF postmark. It was then carried by US steamship from Panama to SF and marked 10 cents due for the steamship rate. The SF marking is an ordinary SF circular date stamp used also on domestic mail.
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United States
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Posted 08/15/2020   10:20 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add littleriverphil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
where find I this SF cancel and some information.


This cancel and four other double circle postmarks where use in San Francisco for 16 years, 1861 to 1876, They can be found in John H. Williams California Town Postmarks 1849-1935.

Below are phone pics of the proper page showing the 5 double circle used in this time frame. The L measurement is shown by an orange line.

I'm guessing the postmark on your cover is either SAF-600 or SAF-610.


Forgot to mention the measurements are in mm.
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Edited by littleriverphil - 08/15/2020 11:48 am
Valued Member
Germany
27 Posts
Posted 08/15/2020   12:22 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add grisuhh62 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank You both for these informations. I thought there has to be a special "ship" marking or anything else canceled in San Francisco. Something like the cancels in the ASCC, Vol. II. Was it allready unusual at that time? That maked me confused.

Juergen
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Posted 08/15/2020   12:49 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Juergen, Did you see the very similar cover (same correspondence) on page 88 of "Incoming Steamship Mail" book?
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Valued Member
Germany
27 Posts
Posted 08/15/2020   5:57 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add grisuhh62 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I just looked at it. The difference is, there is a postmark "Steamship" from NY with /debit/credit. So I can clearly see, it is a Shipcover. The way from Guatemala to Panama is the same(description). But at my cover there is no postmark, that indicates clearly it is a shipcover(some postmark with "ship" or something like that). It is more difficult to identify it as an shipcover.
I am more familar with covers on the Transatlantic routes (Northatlantic). These covers have almost always postmarks, that indicates them as shipcovers. So this one is realy difficult to me to recognize. That is, why I asked here.
But many thanks for the hints, the scan and any other information.
Juergen
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Posted 08/15/2020   8:52 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Juergen, No. Figure 69. Chile to Panama to San Francisco.
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Valued Member
Germany
27 Posts
Posted 08/16/2020   03:29 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add grisuhh62 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I am a little bit confused. We mean the same book!? "United States Incoming Steamship Mail, 1847-1875", Second Edition By Theron J. Wierenga.
Figure 69 in my book: "Letter in either 1851 or 1852 to the U.S.S. Raritan at Panama, prepaid 20c for distance over 2,500 miles, Philadelphia overwrote '20' rate on handstamp used to indicate 5c paid." Sorry, but when I look at the other Figures, I find nothing from Chile to Panama to San Francisco.
I am very sorry. I think we have different books or editions. Please help me!
Juergen
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Posted 08/16/2020   03:58 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Ah, problem solved! I am looking at the 1st edition, 1983. Here is the item I am seeing:


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Valued Member
Germany
27 Posts
Posted 08/17/2020   04:51 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add grisuhh62 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank You! Now it is very much clearer. The cover You posted shows almost the same postmarks as my cover. So I see clearly that my cover should be a shipcover. Many thanks!!!
By looking in my book I found at the end of chapter IV "Steamship Routes", The Panama Route, three hints on publications about some parts to this topic. I looked for them and found they are not difficult to get/buy. I will see whether I will buy one or two of them in the nearer future.

Have a good day

Juergen
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