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Stampless Cover 1860s? Germany To San Francisco - Cannot Find Sf Cancel And Timetables NY To Sf

 
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Valued Member
Germany
32 Posts
Posted 09/09/2020   07:04 am  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add grisuhh62 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hi,
i have got a problem again. Unfortunately I do not had the opportunity to buy the two volumes of "California Town Postmarks 1849-1935" until now. I bought a stampless cover sent from Mainz (Germany) to San Francisco in the, I think, 1860s. First it travells form Mainz, 18. Jan. ???? - usage time of this cancel 9.Oct.1857 to 13.Feb.1866, to Aachen by Mainz/Cln RPO - usage time of this cancel 22.Dec.1859 to 18.Aug.1864 . Date Aachen 19. Jan ????? - usage time for this cancel 1.Jan.1856 bis 30.Dec.1867. From Aachen it was sent by Prussian Closed Mail via Liverpool (manuscript) to New York. Arrival at NY 9. Feb ???? by Am. Packet - usage time for this cancel 15.Oct. 1853 to 21. Aug. 1862 (Hubbard/Winter). The only ships dates I found with this arrival date Inman Line - Liverpool 25. Jan 1860 NY 8. Feb 1860 City of Washington or Liverpool 23. Jan 1861 NY 8. Feb 1861 - Vigo. So far I have it investigated. I own the book "Incoming Steamship Mail, 1847-1875". But the timetables for the routes to San Francisco ends about 1858. The postmark of San Francisco I cannot find in the 3 vol. of the "American Stampless Cover Catalog".
So I like to know the shipping dates from NY to SF via Panama/Nicaragua. And some information about the SF postmark. The word "advertised" I interpret, that the addressee was informed about the letter and had to pick it up at the post office. Am I right??





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Pillar Of The Community
United States
558 Posts
Posted 09/09/2020   07:35 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add SPQR to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The New York Am. Pkt. exchange office marking appears to be February 9, 1861 (based on the year date of the San Francisco advertised marking). If the year is correct, the letter should have been sent overland by Butterfield Southern Overland Mail. However, foreign mails were sometimes handled different from domestic mail, so it is impossible to say for certain without a San Francisco arrival date. If the year date is 1860 and not 1861, it still should have been sent overland rather than by Panama.
The advertised marking means that the letter was unclaimed at the post office for several days so the postmaster included the letter in a newspaper ad indicating that the letter was available at the post office. There was an additional charge for the advertised service
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Valued Member
Germany
32 Posts
Posted 09/09/2020   09:12 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add grisuhh62 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank for Your quick answer. I haven't thought of this possibility yet. Is it possible because the date on the San Francisco postmark seems to be March, 22nd? I have not yet dealt with the duration of such a trip.
I think the Butterfield Southern Overland Mail would had timetables? is there an access to these in any way? May be there is a publication? I think this could help to solve this problem.
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
558 Posts
Posted 09/09/2020   09:36 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add SPQR to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The March 22 date is not important - but the year date (1861) in the marking is important for determining the likely routing between New York and San Francisco. Prior to 1860 the letter would have been sent via Panama. In February 1860 or 1861 it would have been sent by the Butterfield Southern Overland Route. In March - April of 1861, the Butterfield route was suspended due to the start of the US Civil War (the Southern route passed through states that seceded to join the Confederacy), and mail was sent via Panama until the central overland route was operational. From mid-1861 the mail would have been carried overland on the central route until the transcontinental railroad in 1869.
The only timetables I have seen for the Butterfield route are the departure dates from San Francisco. Even if there were departure dates from St. Louis (the primary eastern end of the mail route), you would not be able to identify the specific trip because you don't know how long the letter was in San Francisco before it was advertised.
The best publication (and free) is Mails of the Westward Expansion by Walske and Frajola (Richard Frajola sometimes posts on this messageboard). https://www.rfrajola.com/MWE/MWE.htm The book includes the Butterfield Overland Mail trip schedule in an appendix.
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Valued Member
Germany
32 Posts
Posted 09/09/2020   1:04 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add grisuhh62 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Many thanks SPQR. Such informations are in Germany (where I live) absolutely not to get. The year date in the SF postmark is also a great problem to me to be sure what year. And what you write is this the key for the solution.
I looked at the link to frajola. There is a book in PDF to open (and so to save) about parts of this theme. I have downloaded it and I have to look what information I will find.
I am absolutely pleased about your information!!! Many thanks!!
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
7121 Posts
Posted 09/09/2020   1:16 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The SF year date appears to be 1861.
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Valued Member
Germany
32 Posts
Posted 09/09/2020   5:29 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add grisuhh62 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank You revcollector for your oppinion. I hope it will help. I have to examine.
I have looked at the schedules in "Mails of the Westward Expansion". The ship schedules between SF and NY via Panama stated in this book are always eastbound. I need the westbound schedules. I cannot find them in this book. Can anybody help? Where are the westbound schedules?????

The schedules of the overland mail I still have to look at this very closely.
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
558 Posts
Posted 09/09/2020   6:21 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add SPQR to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I am not aware of a source for the westbound via Panama sailing schedules. You could look in old newspapers for sailing information on specific dates.
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Valued Member
Germany
32 Posts
Posted 09/10/2020   03:49 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add grisuhh62 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for Your efforts. But who can read is clearly at an advantage. On Your linked site is also an link to an update to download the westbound schedules.
But I see a new problem. The Overland Mail Starts/Ends in St. Louis. My letter had come to NY. But how did my letter come to St. Louis???? I looked in "Incoming Steamship Mail, 1847-1875", but the timetables there ends all at about 1858. Why is in the title " til 1875"???
I tried to find something in the internet, but so far without success. I will keep trying.
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
558 Posts
Posted 09/10/2020   06:58 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add SPQR to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Your letter would have traveled from New York to St. Louis by railroad.
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Valued Member
United States
155 Posts
Posted 09/10/2020   07:39 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Richard Frajola to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Your cover would have left New York on February 9th or 10th by rail to St. Louis to be carried on the Southern Butterfield Route. It would have left St. Louis by stage approx. Feb 12th or 16th. and arrived San Francisco around March 7 or 8th. It was advertised two weeks later after it remained unclaimed.

This was a period of transition as Texas had succeeded on February 1st and General Twigg turned over the US Army forts to the CSA on February 18, 1861 (see Chapter 9 in the MWE book).

The westbound via Panama sailings in this period only carried "bulk" mail and mail from Canada (because of a special arrangement) destined to British Columbia. I have online westbound sailing from Panama, at least most of them, to end of 1860. The newspaper notices are very thin in this period as the steamer carrying the mail carried only outdated news (and gold).

See online extra information linked (as an extra appendix C) from page here:
https://www.rfrajola.com/MWE/MWE.htm
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Edited by Richard Frajola - 09/10/2020 07:46 am
Valued Member
Germany
32 Posts
Posted 09/10/2020   4:15 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add grisuhh62 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Many thanks for this exact information. That makes me happy!
Your link: someone already had this posted so I have it downloaded and the extra Appendix C too. But I haven't studied it hard enough until now.

I gues these information are in this publication to find. So I MUST study this in the next time.

This is very helpful for me to understand which route my cover has travelled.
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Valued Member
Germany
32 Posts
Posted 09/10/2020   4:19 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add grisuhh62 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I just remember: why are on the cover no, for example, postmarks or so from this route? Is it travelled in closed pakets like in the "Prussian Closed Mail" over the Northatlantic? Or is there a different explanation.
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Valued Member
United States
155 Posts
Posted 09/10/2020   5:22 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Richard Frajola to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Foreign mails were handled under regulation of treaties that required certain exchange office markings.

Domestic mail within the United States at this date did not require either transit or receiving postmarks. The New York postmark with 30c due served as an origin postmark.
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Valued Member
Germany
32 Posts
Posted 09/11/2020   02:15 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add grisuhh62 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks! I did not know that this was no longer necessary so early on. So I have learned something new.
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