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What Shade Of E11 Is This One?

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Posted 11/09/2020   11:50 pm  Show Profile Check matttodd1's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add matttodd1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I have 5 certified examples of E11, all scanned below, using the same scanner, scanned at the same time.

I think the stamp at top center may be incorrectly identified, as to it's color variety? PSE is calling it simply "ultramarine" (PSE 01382124). I'm wondering if it is one of the sub-varieties, based on the other certified examples I have?

The top left stamp (PSE 01286449) is certified as the E11b "gray violet" shade.

Both bottom stamps (PSE 01305703 and PSE 01379765) are certified as the E11 "ultramarine" shade, which is interesting, as they are so different. The right bottom stamp is a "pink back", for what it's worth.

The top right stamp (PSE 01317218) is certified as the E11c "blue" shade.

To me, the top center stamp looks quite different from the 2 bottom stamps, and actually best matches the top left stamp (certified as E11b), at least in my opinion.

Thoughts? I'm thinking of sending that top middle stamp back, and asking for a reconsideration/corrected certificate, as to me, it seems to be an E11b?

-Matt


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Posted 11/10/2020   12:15 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Colors = Bane of existence
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Posted 11/10/2020   08:37 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Phillystamper to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The center one to me looks like it is very very subtly toward Ultramarine compared to the top left stamp. To see this more clearly scroll the page so that only the bottom sliver of the top row is visible.
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Posted 11/10/2020   09:59 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Please correct my wrong assumptions, but it appears your goal is to have certified copies of the variety of shades and colors for this issue.

You bring 5 examples to us all scanned together, which is a good presentation practice, but the examples you show were certed at different times and likely examined by different examiners under different conditions. No wonder that direct 1:1 comparison is problematic. There are too many possible variables.

If you want a consistent standard of terminology from PSE, all 5 should be submitted together with very specific instructions that you are seeking detailed color/shade opinions. This method will also allow direct in-person comparisons by the same people and the same viewing conditions - leaving the stamps as the only variables.
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Posted 11/10/2020   10:57 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
In my opinion, any accurate color analysis requires that ambient lighting be defined.

Colors are 100% dependent upon ambient lighting. Every color analysis device works by using highly defined lighting source. It is why when you go the paint store and look at the selection of color chips they always use their own defined lighting over them (and not the general store lighting). It is why they use special lighting over the fruits and veggies in every single grocery store. It is why the highly touted VSC6000 uses it's own specific lighting to compare colors. (And note that the VSC is a COMPARATOR, it is not a device which determine a color. It can only compare one thing against another thing using various lighting spectrums.)

Yet our hobby seems to ignore ambient lighting and often we see all kinds of color determines without ever even mentioning the ambient lighting.

I wish the folks who were involved in stamps color would help communicate and educate our hobby of color science. What we have now, which is complete and total confusion and misunderstanding of even basic color theory, makes many stamp color topics maddening.
Don
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Posted 11/10/2020   11:27 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Philazilla to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Here are mine. The Ultramarine and Gray Violet are certified.



I love collecting different shades, but recognize that the cutoffs between one named shade and another are arbitrary an inconsistent. I try not to get too worked up over what the stamp colors are called - that is what frustrates everyone. I just enjoy seeing the variety in my albums.

The colors listed in the catalogs or literature are clues as to the range of colors a stamp might come in. Certified examples can help, but I've found enormous inconsistency in certs - often a cert will just list the most common color regardless of the color.

Just do the best you can - if you see lots of examples, and have references, and the expert opinions on some stamps, your opinion is probably as good as your average expertizer on shades.
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Posted 11/11/2020   03:25 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Agreed. Not only is there no standard color names, many hobbyists do not even get the most basic color theory nomenclature right. Different colors are 'hues'. A 'shade' is a hue mixed with black (hence the name shade). A 'tint' is a hue mixed with white. A 'tone' is a hue mixed with gray. As far as I know, certifications never called out a 'shade', they only call out a color/hue.

Why is this important? It not only makes sure everyone is on the same page but probably more importantly 'shade' should not be used in stamp colors because can be impacted by the heaviness (density) of the inking. In a single print run of a specific ink color, there can be many shades or tints based upon the application of the ink. The ink color can be the same throughout the print run but a stamp color can look lighter or darker depending upon the quantity of ink that was applied to each sheet of stamps (against the background color of the paper). It is challenging enough to try to understand the different inks/ink combinations used across a production run of stamps; further dividing this up into shades and tints would result in millions of color names. (Computers typically use 64 million colors and have designation for each one. Surely our hobby does not want to assign names and catalog numbers to countless shades and tints that could occur in a single print run of the same ink color.)

In our hobby the colors of Blue and Ultramarine mean different inks. Many hobbyists mistake a lighter Blue (less Blue ink which allows the lighter background color to show) as Ultramarine but when you put a Blue stamp and a Ultramarine stamp next to each other it is clearly different ink colors.
Don


Image from "The fundamentals of understanding color theory" https://99designs.com/blog/tips/the...olor-theory/
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Posted 11/11/2020   05:22 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Philazilla, Thank you for posting your 5 examples from your album. Let me make a comment/question. You have repeated "Unwatermarked, Perforated 11, 1917" 5 times which dilutes and obscures the differences in the third line of each description. Have you considered having the common text as a header for the group and only the differentiating feature text remain with each stamp? It would make the page far easier to follow.
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Posted 11/11/2020   12:00 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add StampPapa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I am always hesitant to join conversations on stamp colors, too many variables as well as opinions. Yet it can be an area of enjoyment. While offering no opinions on any previous posts, here is my page of E11 color samples, all un-named and none with certification. Simply an example of what I have seen and collected over the years.
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Posted 11/11/2020   2:43 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamps101 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Totally off-topic but as I was reading Don's post about shade/hue/tint, I realized the apparent counterintuitiveness of the term "tinted windows".

Back on topic, I am in the same boat as Philazilla. I enjoy displaying them beside each other just to show the differences and variety. Past that, I can't usually figure out any certainty in the differences. I applaud those who can!
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Posted 11/11/2020   8:17 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jamesw to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you 51studebaker.
I spent four years in art college, 35 years in the industry as an illustrator, art director and designer, and even taught colour theory for a short while at a local community college. It drives me bonkers when people use the wrong terms.
I believe I've even ranted on occasion on this very forum. You've saved me the trouble of pulling out my soap box.
I appreciate your explanation and graphic.
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Posted 11/12/2020   10:00 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Philazilla to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the comment @John Becker. The page that those 5 stamps come from has 13 stamps with the same design. The way I do my pages is a work in process. And I agree that repeating "Unwatermarked Perf 11" on them can make it harder to see what really makes them different. I really like to see as many of the same-design stamps on a page as possible, and sometimes that makes for wordy labels. I'll work on making the labels a little clearer and less repetitive.
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Posted 11/13/2020   07:23 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add littleriverphil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It might help if the title of this thread was changed to reflect the correct terms. "What Shade Hue of E11 is this one?
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Posted 11/14/2020   08:36 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Philazilla to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
As stamp collectors we surely have more than our share of pedants, but it is silly that every time someone talks about stamp colors, we get a bunch of replies about vocabulary. "Shade" is commonly used in our hobby to describe the different hues, shades, tints, and tones of our stamps. Everyone knows what "shade" means in this context. Language reflects usage, and "shade" is the word most stamp collectors use to describe color variants. If you want to be a vocabulary pedant, please change the title of this thread to, "What hue, shade, tint, or tone of E11 is this one? (And please give me vocabulary lessons instead of helping me figure it out.)"
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Posted 11/14/2020   08:45 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Philazilla,
Obviously accuracy/learning is not important to you, that is fine. Clearly this is not the community for you, I recommend that you find a different one.
Don
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Posted 11/14/2020   09:21 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add 3193zd to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Isn't there a computer app that lets you scan your stamp to identify the color? Then you can compare to your other stamps and other recorded stamps how their color is analyzed.
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Michael Darabaris
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