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How To Know The Plate Number Please For This Penny Black

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Posted 11/26/2020   2:12 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add waelshami to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
How to know the plate number please for this penny black
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Posted 11/26/2020   8:13 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bobby De La Rue to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Looks like a plate 1 to me, but I'll leave it for someone to confirm if it is a plate 1A or 1B.
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Edited by Bobby De La Rue - 11/26/2020 8:54 pm
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Posted 11/27/2020   03:40 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I agree with Bobby De La Rue. The Q is set very high. The A is set low and has an almost level base but tilts slightly left, i.e,. seems to rest on its left leg. The rays of the top -left star at 7 and 8 o'clock help identifying whether it is the original (1a) or later (1b) state, except for a few positions that do not include QA. Your example has well-defined rays at 7 and 8 o'clock. So, I would say it is from the repaired state of plate 1, i.e., plate 1b.
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Posted 11/27/2020   04:29 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add waelshami to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you very much
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Posted 11/27/2020   3:12 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bobby De La Rue to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks NSK - I learn something new all the time here!
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Posted 01/23/2021   12:45 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mrita75 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi. Jumping in on this post. I have this Penny Black - EH. I believe it is Plate 5?... - can someone share a link or steps on how that is determined? Thank you - just trying to learn.
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Posted 01/23/2021   04:07 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Nora,
This is a site that has many pictures of Penny Blacks that you can access by corner letters.

http://maltesex.com/cgi-bin/doctarr...mode=plating

In the box at the top enter "left* right*," where the asterisks are the two corner letters. In your case, "lefte righth" and clicking search will show you a list of stamp pictures.

The ones that say "NISSEN" in the "Plate Number" column is helpful for comparisons. It has pictures of stamps from all plates for the specific corner letters.

Your slanted, high-set "H" is a very good one to start with. Plates 2, 5, 6, and 8 seem the only possibilities. Plates 6 and 8 have the "H" set much too low to be your stamp. The "H" of plate 2 does not have the distinct serif on top of the right leg of the "H." Plate 5's "H" does look like yours.

Your E appears well-centred and straight. Only plates 2, 5, 8, 10 and 11 have straight E's that are centred. The "H" of plates 10 and 11 are set much too low.

The upper and base lines of the E for plate 11 extend almost to the left frame. This letter is different. Also, the H is among the lower set ones. The H of plate 10 is much too low. The "E" of plate 8 is not that well centred. It is offset to the northwest. So, again 2 and 5. The top line of the "E" of plate two is almost straight. Yours slants towards the northeast. This is what you also see in that of plate 5. The serif of the central line of the "E" almost touches the base line on plate 5, but not on plate 2.

Usually, the letters will be sufficient to identify the plate. The rays of the stars at the top show a lot of brakes in or even missing rays that help identify the plate. Also, the frame lines of the boxes in the four corners help. Compare the upper frame of the northwest box. It is strong on plate 2 and very weak on plate 5. Yours shows even further wear than the plate 5 example. Probably a later printing.

So, yes. I have no doubt your stamp is a plate 5 example.

If you go back to the listing and chose the picture 2006/05/22/DT151119.JPG, you will see the Penny Red printed from the plate also has the later state of the top frame line of the northwest corner box. The pictures of individual stamps are much better and can help confirm your findings.

Be aware many stamps were printed from the plates. Wear can cause some elements to change slightly over time. Serifs may become weak, rays can break, frame lines can thin or break. So, do not just confirm, but also try to eliminate.
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Edited by NSK - 01/23/2021 04:14 am
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Posted 01/23/2021   12:07 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mrita75 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
NSK. - amazing as always. So so helpful and thorough. I decided to start a GB album similar to my French album so I've been reading and learning before I start to mount. I also ordered the correct and much more updated Scott Catalogue - my 2000 1840-1940 was not really enough and at times I have a hard time seeing the stamp images and details. (Sigh, time for me to get reading glasses). So another question - the plate numbers don't impact the Scott number correct? Thank you NSK for always sharing your extensive knowledge.
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Posted 01/23/2021   12:52 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Nora,

I am not familiar with Scott. I am from Europe. We, mostly, use Michel or Yvert et Tellier.

As a collector of Great Britain (United Kingdom), I use Stanley Gibbons (SG). The SG Concise does not assign numbers to plates, only to colours (intense black, black and grey-black). The SG Specialised assigns separate numbers to plates.

If you want good pictures of British Stamps, the Stoneham Catalogue is available on the web. You will have to Google it, as the link is prohibited.

I think it beats the SG Concise. It has pictures in colour of all stamps, illustrates varieties and goes far beyond the SG Concise. An example is the section about the Wilding stamps that lists both papers, all three phosphor types and both phosphor bar widths.

It even lists all three formats of the George V photogravure stamps.

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Posted 01/23/2021   3:28 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Tongman65 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Nora, Scott has a sub-listing for certified plated examples of the Penny Black, to help you further identify your stamp(s) in your collection.
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Posted 01/23/2021   6:42 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mrita75 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you Tongman. Looking forward to getting my new Scott Catalogue. Nora.
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Posted 01/23/2021   7:16 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mrita75 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Ok, I will probably embarrass myself, but I am trying one based on the link NSK shared. Would this be Plate 9? Thank you.
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Posted 01/23/2021   8:25 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bobby De La Rue to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Mrita75,

I think this is a plate 13.

The C in your stamp is centred to the left which rules out plate 9, which has the C quite well centred horizontally.

Hope this helps
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Posted 01/23/2021   9:36 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mrita75 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
That helps. Ok I am going to go back in to the resource guide and see how I missed it. I did look at the example on Plate 13 but ended up going with 9. Thank you Bobby.

Note: ok I went back to the file - and I could not find Plate 13. the only red options with LeftC and RightH where the C is pushed slightly to the left is maybe Plate 5? Anyway - it really does not matter - this helps me learn which is why I like posting and trying things.

Thanks again.
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Edited by Mrita75 - 01/23/2021 10:00 pm
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Posted 01/23/2021   10:56 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bobby De La Rue to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Happy to help Mrita75.

Below is the link to my goto reference when trying to plate penny reds.

https://www.gbps.org.uk/information...tion-sheets/

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Posted 01/24/2021   03:33 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Nora,

Plates 1 - 11 were the only plates used for the Penny Black. The majority of those plates were used in 1841 to print the Penny Red. The link I provided is a Penny Black plating project. Plates 12 and further were only used to print the Penny Red.

SG notes that stamps from plates 12-16 have a break in the top frame line of the northeast corner that became progressively larger. Your example has the Maltese Cross obscuring most of the top frame line of the northeast corner. It appears there is a break, but the Maltese Cross hides it.

The link Bobby De La Rue provides is helpful. However, the imprimaturs are missing. So, not all letters are there. If you go to the 1d Red, die I, Alphabet I in this link, you see registration sheets for plates 12 and higher.

As for why it is not plate 9: look at the bottom right of the O in "ONE." There is a flaw that makes it look like a Q. This, later, was repaired. Also, you will note the top frame line in the northeast corner is complete. Your example has a weak top frame line in the northwest corner. On plate 9 it is much stronger.

I am not convinced the stamp is from plate 13 either. In the link Bobby de La Rue provided, the right frame line of stamp CH from plate 13 is very strong. Your example has a very weak right frame line in the northeast corner. The frame lines of the northwest corner also are much too weak. The base of the C in your stamp appears to be set above the central arm of the "E" in "ONE." The registration sheet for plate 13 appears to have it set lower. It is not very clear, but I would also argue the serifs of the "H" are much heavier in your example than in that of the registration sheet.

Wear can make lines weaker, but not heavier. The registration sheets are the earliest examples. Mind you, some plates underwent repairs. But the number of differences, I think, is too large to make that a plate 13.
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Edited by NSK - 01/24/2021 11:46 am
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