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Help Wanted Re Early 1d Western Australia Swan Issue.

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Posted 01/11/2021   3:26 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add itma to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I have this early Western Australia Swan which I can't identify completely.

Re colour, it looks more like the ochre family than bistre, and I would tend to classify it as yellow-ochre.

I haven't been able to see the watermark as there is still some paper on the back of the stamp. Thus, I don't know if it is Crown CC or Crown CA but the perf would be more consistent with a Crown CA issue.

My main concern is the perforation. As you will see from the images below, the perf is about 12.75 x 12.6. This doesn't put it into the ballpark of any of the published perfs of 14, 12 x 14 and 12. Is there a known variability for these early stamps that might be able to place it as the p12 issue?


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Edited by itma - 01/11/2021 3:29 pm

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Posted 01/11/2021   5:51 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Opinion, before reading the bible.
Engraved Sc#29 1d Bistre P12.5

1. I would use a small painters brush, and remove detritus on back, substantiate the Wmk, Wmk 1

2. Stamp is used, ergo Colour can be changed by a myriad or ways.

3. I would personally forget the perforation guage, and match it to a known stamp.
(Get a modern modern stamp of known guage and bring the teeth together, to give you an indication of difference.

I'll consult the Study Group later on this morning Frank.
I have to toddle up to the shops, for milk for my (decaf) coffee


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Edited by rod222 - 01/11/2021 5:54 pm
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Posted 01/11/2021   6:43 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Suggestion.
1865 Watermark Crown CC Line Perf 12.5 (Rough)
The perforator was coarse, rarely producing perfect results.
Colour : Olive Bistre or Bistre, depending if Group 3 or 4.

Up to 4 orientations of the Wmk exist.
Can determine type

Paper: Hand made Turner Crown CC paper.

Penny stamps were available from 27th December 1864.

Source: Study Group and Mogens Juhl.

Watermarks are generally described as to where the crown points
West, WestR, Aust, AustR.

Handmade sheets were produced from paper pulp, in a mould containing 240 bits (Crown CC images)

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Edited by rod222 - 01/11/2021 6:48 pm
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Posted 01/12/2021   11:12 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add itma to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks, Rod et al.

Score Australia 1, Canada 0.

It is Crown-CC watermark which narrows it down to SG 52w bistre (Sorry, I don't have Scott) or 53w ochre. With respect, I'll go with ochre. The match against my SG ochre colour chip - the lower chip in the following image - is just too good, compared to the bistre.

Frank.

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Edited by itma - 01/12/2021 11:13 am
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Posted 01/12/2021   1:30 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Frank,
I cannot be emphatic on colour, that is your resolve.

However, without releasing all the facts on your example, we can only have speculation.
The Watermark and paper are most relevant.
Your fail to indicate the orientation of the Wmk.

Alas, I have no information if it is possible to determine if it is hand made paper or Machine made.

As far as colour is concerned, there were 52 invoices for supplies of the 1d, and the request suggested the 1d to be "of lighter colour" for ease of defacing.
The suggesting was "say the colour of the British 9d"
(Scott # 40 9d Straw)

Juhl appears to only give Bistre
Study group 19 "groups" of the 1d
Matching the CrCC and P12.5
colours are bistre,olive bistre, Ochre=only Machine made paper.

Note: on Guaging the perforations, the line 12.5 is believed to be the line 13 perforator, to puncture the 1863 no wmk issue.
it was overhauled and issued with new pins.

Any corrections, welcomed.


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Edited by rod222 - 01/12/2021 1:33 pm
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Posted 01/12/2021   1:55 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
As far as colour is concerned, there were 52 invoices for supplies of the 1d, and the request suggested the 1d to be "of lighter colour" for ease of defacing.
The suggesting was "say the colour of the British 9d"
(Scott # 40 9d Straw)


This 9d is listed by Stanley Gibbons as "bistre" (SG86) with a "straw" (SG87) variety for the stamp with small corner letters from plate 2. Plate 3 (SG88) only has "bistre" as listed colour. The stamp with the large corner letters is listed by Stanley Gibbons as "straw" (1865, SG98, and 1867 SG110-111).
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Edited by NSK - 01/12/2021 1:56 pm
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Posted 01/12/2021   2:21 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Nice research NSK
I'll go the SG86 or SG88 then. Date fits.
1865 issue too late.
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Posted 01/12/2021   4:19 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add itma to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Rod:

Quote:
Your fail to indicate the orientation of the Wmk.


I thought the w in the SG number gave that info, i.e. "Wmk Crown to right of CC" as seen from the back. Here is an image of the rear. The watermark is offset quite a bit and the visible CC belong to the next instance of the watermark. Anyway here is the back of the stamp. In the bottom section, I've marked off the ball and cross from the top of the crown and the CC from the next watermark, together with an overlaid transparent, reversed image of the stamp's obverse.

Frank.
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Posted 01/12/2021   7:43 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I thought the w in the SG number gave that info, i.e. "Wmk Crown to right of CC" as seen from the back.


If that is so, my apologies Frank, I was not aware of that.
I am aware you are fastidious with your KGV details,
and was surprised when you (apparently) didn't offer on this one.

I'll do some digging, and see if I can get a result.
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Posted 01/12/2021   8:00 pm  Show Profile Check fairdinkumstamps's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add fairdinkumstamps to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The scan looks like bistre rather than 'yellow-ochre'.

Perf 12.5, 1d Bistre, Crown CC watermark with crown to the right of CC from the back of the stamp is Stanley Gibbons catalogue SG 52w.

If it is 'yellow-ochre' (scans may be misleading on colour) then it is SG 53w.
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https://www.fairdinkumstamps.com Fair Dinkum Stamps - Specialising in stamps from early Australia and the colonies, Australian philatelic literature, catalogues, stockbooks and accessories.
Edited by fairdinkumstamps - 01/12/2021 8:03 pm
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Posted 01/13/2021   1:16 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add itma to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Rod, fairdinkum:

First a word about the stamp. I know its provenance for the last 80 or so years well enough to know that it has rarely seen the light of day. It has been in an album for that time so it has not been subject to water and chemicals.

Re my Stanley Gibbons colour chips (the starter edition with just 100 colours): I keep it well protected from light along with my scanner calibration and photography colour references. Every so often, I check it out to ensure there is no major colour shift since last used on that particular scanner.

Just a word about my process. If I need to check a colour, I scan both the stamp and the colour chip at the same time to eliminate potential changes in scanner output over time.

So here is my evaluation of the stamp's colour. The following table gives colour data for my chips and the stamp. My colour chip set doesn't have yellow-ochre so I have created what such a chip could possibly look like by increasing the yellow content in the ochre chip.As I forgot to add this hypothetical colour data to the chart, Here it is: RGB (196, 162, 56) and CMYK (25, 34, 100, 2).


The whole image column gives the average colour data for the whole stamp. As could be expected, it looks like the colour data has been darkened because of the heavy black postmark and lightened because of white space (K=7 vs K=9 for the colour chip). The part image data came from an area with no postmark, and also did not have the heavier applications of ink that can be seen elsewhere (K=2).

So I repeat that the stamp's colour is highly consistent with the Ochre family. If the colour had been changed by exposure to light, red (R in RGB) would most likely be first to go, followed by cyan (C in CMYK). The numbers don't support this, so if it looks and quacks like a duck, etc. Thus the I feel comfortable describing it as the ochre shade, i.e. SG 53w.

Frank.
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Posted 01/13/2021   2:38 pm  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Perhaps it is
Golden Rod...
or Tuscany...
or Bumblebee...
or Flax...
or Laguna...
or Eggnog
or Bisque...
or Amber...
or Cornsilk...
or Moccasin...
or Golden Marguerite...
or Golden Poppy...
or Mango...

There are many arbitrary color names that could be applied, color names are a terrible way to try to classify stamps.

Imagine you are hungry and standing in front of 10 pots of chili, each pot has one of these names;
Burning hot
Fiery hot
Scary hot
Blazing hot
Red hot
Searing hot
Loco hot
Crazy hot
Scorching hot
Blistering hot
What can you tell from these names (other that the chilis are hot)? Which is the hottest? What is the delta between 'Red hot and 'Crazy hot'? Is what I would call 'Loco hot' the same as what the next person would call 'Loco hot'?
Don
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Posted 01/13/2021   4:23 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Frank,
I'll respectfully dodge the colour issue.

What we can determine.
1. It is 1865 handmade paper, thin and rather transparent, with a greyish tinge.
Same paper as Saint Helena, and Ceylon (not Ceylon 1866 paper)

Machine made paper is softer, med thickness with a yellowish tinge.

This only matches with 2 listings in the study group.
Their colours indicated only in groups 3 or 4
I would suggest they would have had access to 1000's of these issues, with constant proof reading, and re appraisals from dedicated WA / Australian collectors.

Best I can do

Note: I did read somewhere, De la Rue id have problems with colours
in their early years, but I think that was mainly regarding their new surface printed issues.

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Edited by rod222 - 01/13/2021 4:34 pm
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Posted 01/13/2021   4:53 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add itma to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
51Stud:

I agree with you 100% re colour names. It would be far better to call them by their RGB or some later (trendier) description. You could use Pantone numbers as these are relatively stable, but a complete set of chips costs thousands of dollars. One would hope, however, that colour chip names from SG are consistent with colour names in their catalogues. I think that SG got out of that product line.

Rod:

Thank you and your study group buddies for the info on this stamp. It makes interesting reading.

Frank.
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Edited by itma - 01/13/2021 4:58 pm
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Posted 01/13/2021   5:06 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Frank,
if you continue to dip your toe into the Western Australian tide,
I would encourage you to Mogens Juhl
A brilliant Monograph.

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Posted 01/13/2021   5:57 pm  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Frank,
Color vision is a sensory perception, 100% subjective. It is also totally dependent upon ambient lighting. Look at your stamp under a cool fluorescent lighting and the color wave lengths bouncing off the surface of the stamp will make it appear a different color them if you are in natural sunlight, or LED light, or the glow of a 1880s gas light.

My chili analogy above does not fully explain the subjective troubles with colors and color names. Imagine the same 10 pots of different chili and instead of naming them we are just going to rank them, from 1 to 10, on how hot they are after we taste each one. If you have 100 people, what are the chances that we would get a clear consensus on the 1 thru 10 rankings? Some folks will not even be able to taste differences. Some are so heat sensitive they will not be able to taste all 10. Some will think that none of them are very hot. <shrugs>
Don
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