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Unusual Terms Of Sale Regarding Certificates?

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Posted 02/20/2021   10:21 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add canyoneer to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The Q12 on his web site. It has a 2008 PSE cert but I would like to send it in to PF for a newer opinion (I prefer PF opinions). Based on my reading the terms, if it came back reperfed or regummed, I would be out of luck.
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Posted 02/20/2021   10:30 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add SPQR to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
best thing to do would be to call him up and ask if he would accept a return under that situation
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Posted 02/20/2021   10:38 am  Show Profile Check sinclair2010's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add sinclair2010 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks. I think I would definitely want to get a new cert with a different set of eyes on that one.
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Posted 02/20/2021   1:16 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add mootermutt987 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
As an exercise in complete due-diligence, you may wish to see if the stamp you are (were?) considering has a more recent PF cert by searching their database. Perhaps someone before you bought that stamp, sent it tot he PF, got a bad opinion, returned it, and the new (bad) cert mysteriously disappeared.
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Posted 02/20/2021   1:55 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Richard Frajola to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I have known Alan Cohen since working with him at Roger Koerber's in 1973. He is one of the good guys and 200% OK. It is not his fault some of the commentators here can not understand why he has his terms of sale written as he does. Ask him to clarify for you why his terms are written that way. Do not disparage him because you do not understand.

Some expert groups try to capture old certs that have different opinion than new cert in an effort to prevent fraud. I am sure the honest dealers, such as Alan, would want to return any and all previous certs to the groups and oblige.
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Posted 02/21/2021   1:11 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add widglo46 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
canyoneer - Thanks for starting this thread. I think the reactions of various people reveals a lot about the inherent conflict between dealers and collectors. Prior to revealing who the dealer in question actually was, there were at least six posts that reflected agreement with your suspicion of the dealer's T&C's. It illustrates how much apprehension collectors have in doing business with dealers that they haven't dealt with before. I'd wager in fact, that some of the initial responses came from people who know Alan Cohen well, and would have responded quite differently if they had been aware of whose website you were referring to.

You have to put yourself in the dealer's shoes and recognize that some degree of mistrust is mutual.
archerg wrote it plainly -
Quote:
I'd love to hear the dealer's side too. The approach described in the OP (ill-conceived or not) suggests dealers are frustrated with buyers, also with certs and their inconsistency.


The bottom line is that you have to get to know the dealers you buy from, and they have to get to know you. Unfortunately, that seldom happens quickly, and may require a few purchases. Stamp shows used to make things a little easier, but now you just have to call and talk. I don't always feel safe in my assessment of new dealers, but if they are all business and don't seem interested in talking to me, I usually won't go back.

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Posted 02/21/2021   9:19 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Reedededge to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Richard Frajola- I agree wholeheartedly. I believe we need to refrain from public condemnation until we hear both sides. For every "dicey" dealer there are an equal number of collectors who also are bad actors. Let's give this gentleman the benefit of the doubt until we know his side of the story.
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Posted 02/21/2021   9:36 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add PostmasterGS to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I don't know. I'm not sure there's anything a dealer could say that could explain this away:

Quote:
If an expertizing body requires that an older certificate be included with your submission, you are not to provide that earlier certificate.

I get that a dealer can become frustrated with conflicting certs, returns because of that, etc. That shouldn't be the buyer's problem, though.
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Presenting the GermanStamps.net Collection - Germany, Colonies, & Occupied Territories, 1872-1945
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Posted 02/23/2021   05:31 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add widglo46 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It has been the practice of the PSE to destroy earlier dated PSE certs if their opinion changed with a new submission. In their eyes, the previous certificate doesn't exist anymore, and you will no longer be able to verify it with their online verification tool. I think their rationale in doing this is that the old certificate is wrong, the PSE doesn't stand by it, and it shouldn't be in circulation.

I'm not sure what the PF does with originals if they get them with a submission, but in respect to their database, they just link the new certificate with the old one, and remove the old image. The PF will do this even if you just submit the previous certificate number without the original or paper copy.

Neither entity "requires" that you submit earlier certificates, and there are probably pros and cons to revealing that information to the new examiners. In any case, it seems reasonable to me that the submitter should be able to keep any certificate that has ever been issued on the stamp. The certificates belong to the history of the stamp. There is a date on it, it was an expert opinion on that date, and anyone with interest in the stamp can decide for themselves to what extent it is still relevant.

The previous statement, I think, explains the wording in Alan Cohen's T&C's in regards certificates. Since I am one of Alan's regular clients, I spoke with him about the negative inference some people took away from his T&C's. He understood how they could have caused some confusion (and suspicion), and he has since revised them. My own feeling is that neither his T&C's nor anyone else's can cover every circumstance. There may be reasons that a special extension is warranted, and that just needs to be worked out between buyer and seller.

It is unfortunate if Alan Cohen created doubt in anyone's mind about the way he conducts his business. I think that he is probably amongst the most trustworthy dealers on the planet, and he has that reputation with every collector and dealer I know that has ever dealt with him. He is NOT the type of dealer who is going to hide a bad cert, cheat you, or ever, knowingly, misrepresent a stamp.
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Posted 02/23/2021   12:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add m and m to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
widglo46
having known Alan for meany years I second you enforcement 100%.........and look forward to when I can see him and other good guys and gals in a show//bourse setting.
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Edited by m and m - 02/23/2021 12:15 pm
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Posted 02/23/2021   2:56 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add mootermutt987 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I agree with widglo. Mr. Cohen is one of the good guys. Perhaps, he has the T&C's that he does more for a CYA aspect than anything. Whatever the reasoning, he is a stand-up guy.
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Edited by mootermutt987 - 02/23/2021 2:57 pm
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Posted 02/23/2021   8:54 pm  Show Profile Check sinclair2010's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add sinclair2010 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The T&C was definitely cleaned up quite a bit. I wonder if that Q12 is going out the door now?
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