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#112 On Kelleher Sale 753

 
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Posted 03/01/2021   7:59 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add widglo46 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Anyone interested in the #112 with a PSAG cert graded 95 might be interested to know that there is another cert that hasn't been disclosed. A PSE cert dated 06/16/2020 graded it XF 90.

Buyers should not just be shown the most favorable certificates. If it is too difficult for the auction houses to research every offering themselves, then I think they should allow refunds if undisclosed conflicting certificates from any of the major expertizing entities are found within 30 days of the sale.

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Posted 03/01/2021   8:22 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Good stuff Lorry and thank you. It would appear that some grade shopping was going on if both grades were issued within the same timeframe. Not presenting both is just a bad look. It would have been OK to present both results and let the bidders decide how they felt. This just looks somewhat devious whether it is or not.
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Posted 03/01/2021   10:56 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Wshuwahere77 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Great catch. Never thought to check that. Thanks for sharing. Now I kind of want to dig into some others in that auction. Such as, that number 2, graded 95.

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Posted 03/02/2021   04:17 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Re72di5phM0



Don
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Posted 03/02/2021   07:01 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rgstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I also don't like auction houses cross referencing one grading company with another. Trying to sell a stamp as top/near top of population report, but stamp is graded by competing company than pop report is published by? Makes no sense. Different graders and grading standards at each company, competing for your business- set up for getting ripped off.

By the way, in my eyes this stamp is a 98. Face free cancel and great centering. I upgrade for light face free cancels, full long perfs etc. but no one cares about "my grading company" that exists in my brain LOL

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Posted 03/02/2021   07:27 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Any difference in value just proves that people bid for the cert rather then the stamp, since the stamp didn't change between the different agencies.
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Posted 03/02/2021   07:45 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Might as well have gotten a PF grade just in case.
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Edited by rogdcam - 03/02/2021 07:46 am
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Posted 03/02/2021   07:53 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add wtcrowe to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Most auction houses do not allow for the return of a stamp for disagreement as to grade or centering. You will find that in the fine print of their terms of sale. It is possible that DFK was unaware of the PSE certificate as the consignor just showed them the PSAG certificate.

I have found in the past that PSAG grades tend to run a half grade higher than PSE and PSE a half grade higher than PF.
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Posted 03/02/2021   08:26 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add funcitypapa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
WT Crowe statement very telling. Reminds me of ICG/ANACS/NGC/PCGS game in coins. Unfortunately there will never be, in my opinion, an open forum between for example Shoemaker and Murphy on the above referenced stamp or others like it.
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Posted 03/02/2021   08:45 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Everyone has heard of the "fog or war" but I am going to coin a new term, the "fog of capitalism". This is encapsulated by the belief that no one has to be accountable for transparency since everyone can rely upon "gee, we didn't know" or parrot the standard "buyer beware". It does not matter that none of us has ever seen a case where a lower graded cert is promoted when a better one existed; the "fog of capitalism" works in the favor of the sellers throughout the transaction chain.

The 'transparency test' is fairly straight forward, submit a few stamps with multiple grades to an auction firm and see what they do. I would bet that this has previously occurred with some of us but I doubt that many folks would risk publishing this information; losing a company to do business with vs. helping the hobby is a different kind of test. Do we just accept the 'fog of capitalism' as the default behavior? (Rhetorical question, we all already know the answer.)

I give a lot of credit to PSE for having the courage to allow us to host the cert search. But to be honest I am waiting for the other shoe to drop; what will happen if there is push back from those who do not want transparency? For everyone in the supply chain foggy weather means more money, the consumer has no one in their corner.
Don
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Posted 03/02/2021   10:26 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add funcitypapa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
This is too big of a decision to leave to the whim of an individual grader whose judgement can spell the difference in value from hundreds to thousands of dollars particularly in the more expensive issues, which is why I am not a fan of grading in general. I truly doubt that ANY of us can tell the difference between a 95 and 98 or 98 and 100. The whole thing seems bogus and arbitrary to me.
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Posted 03/02/2021   12:23 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I truly doubt that ANY of us can tell the difference between a 95 and 98 or 98 and 100.


More of the "fog" of which Don speaks. Give me one good reason why the expertizing/grading body should not give the customer a copy of their worksheet which details how a grade or other decision was arrived at. They are in essence conducting an appraisal of the stamp. I cannot imagine paying for an appraisal of a house or anything else and receiving in return for my money a piece of paper that simply states a single number and confirms that it is indeed a house.
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Posted 03/02/2021   1:50 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add funcitypapa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Rodg: and yet, that was indeed what happened many years ago when I submitted an unused Scott 67 to one of the premier expertizing organizations only to be told that it was genuine cancellation removed. Having put the stamp through its paces before submission including various wavelengths of UV light as well dipping and my hospitals dissecting microscope and coming up with nothing, I called the organization and spoke to the expert who has coincidentally opined on this forum at times and asked where on the work sheet the supposed cancel was found and was told that, in fact, the worksheet was blank. I then asked to be sent a copy of the work sheet and was denied on the basis of confidentiality as if the paid for opinion had the same rights of privacy as communication about medical patients, not philatelic "patients." What a farce.

The stamp was subsequently sent to another of the top 3 and expertized as genuine, unused, NG.
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Edited by funcitypapa - 03/02/2021 1:53 pm
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Posted 03/02/2021   7:15 pm  Show Profile Check eyeonwall's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add eyeonwall to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
"I also don't like auction houses cross referencing one grading company with another. Trying to sell a stamp as top/near top of population report, but stamp is graded by competing company than pop report is published by? Makes no sense. Different graders and grading standards at each company, competing for your business- set up for getting ripped off."

One such house just held heir last auction.

"Most auction houses do not allow for the return of a stamp for disagreement as to grade or centering. "

True.

"I have found in the past that PSAG grades tend to run a half grade higher than PSE and PSE a half grade higher than PF."

It has also been my experience tat PSAG grades higher.
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Posted 03/02/2021   7:46 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Funcitypapa - Thank you for sharing that story. It goes without saying that it is fundamentally wrong to have no work to show for the fee and it does make me wonder how many other "patients" have no written workup either. I fail to see how confidentiality can be invoked with a straight face. Proprietary methodology perhaps to some extent but even that is a stretch in my eyes. I would like to see the expert comments, what equipment/software was used and if any closeup examination images were captured I would like to see those as well.
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Posted 03/03/2021   09:03 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add GMC89 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
In my opinion. Just looking over Kellehers prices realized. Interesting, some high some not so high. The 112 that started this thread brought 800 . Grading was probably worth 400.00.
Cheers
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Edited by GMC89 - 03/03/2021 09:04 am
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