Stamp Community Family of Web Sites
Thousands of stamps, consistently graded, competitively priced and hundreds of in-depth blog posts to read
Stamp Community Forum
 
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some stamps?
Our stamp forum is completely free! Register Now!

Watermark ID Problem On Victoria Qv Issue

 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 5 / Views: 299Next Topic  
Pillar Of The Community
United States
763 Posts
Posted 03/14/2021   6:13 pm  Show Profile Check docgfd's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add docgfd to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
The two scans show the front and back of a 4d Victoria QV issue that fits Scott design A10, but there is no mention anywhere that I could find that matches up the 'VIC' watermark (presumably part of VICTORIA). Any help in the ID of this stamp would be sincerely appreciated !

Send note to Staff

Pillar Of The Community
United States
2326 Posts
Posted 03/14/2021   9:42 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hy-brasil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The VIC is part of the marginal watermark not intended for the stamps but could appear often enough on part on a stamp. So your stamp is from one of the outside positions of the sheet or pane. Always interesting but usually nothing to get excited about.

This happens often enough on Victorian issues of the British Commonwealth.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
763 Posts
Posted 03/15/2021   12:37 am  Show Profile Check docgfd's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add docgfd to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you hy-brasil. Would this be part of the manufacturer's name or simply part of the country name for identification purposes?
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
2326 Posts
Posted 03/15/2021   06:16 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hy-brasil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I've never seen a complete image of this sheet watermark, just parts. It also would be useful to know exactly which individual stamp watermark this corresponds to, if possible. Any help out there?
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
Australia
17 Posts
Posted 04/07/2021   4:57 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add steveb to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I'll try to address several things here for the poster as well as future reader.

Think about 6x4 photos. You might have (at least in the recent past) have some framed around your home. You could switch out the photos any time you like for a new one but the frame remains the same. Similarly the watermarking of sheets for stamps would be done the same, sheets would typically be the same size to start with so a "frame" watermark can be made but the inside switched out for different dies (instead of photos in my analogy). the paper is made and watermarked for clients so theframe from my understanding is usually for client identification. Having worked with a modern print facility in the '90s they have pallets of paper and card stock everywhere as well as pallets of half printed works . The watermark is a way to firstly mark the paper for client identification so the correct paper is used for the correct print job. Early Australian Issues have "Commonwealth Of Australia Postage" written in the watermark down the long edges of the "frame" which also identifies to the printer the correct orientation the sheets need to be loaded into the printer. Many people at different times would come along and lift the top sheet to inspect too and f the replace them the wrong way around or unflat (creased/folder corner etc) then the guys operating the printer (its a team as these are HUGE machines) would just chuck the whole stac or part of into the machine so easy for inverted sheets to occur as ever single sheet is not inspected.

I haven't seen the aussie states watermark sheet designs, so every watermarked stamps would have these margin frames in the paper. The print designs are meant to fit within the inside of the watermark frame entirely. Sometimes the watermark frame is a line box with watermarked wording around the outside of that. So stamps with a watermark and a line or corner are common enough (no extra value). If you get partial lettering then the design of the stamp was probably a little larger to fit a desired number on the sheet. Its NOT an error, it was a cost efficiency decision. Plus the stamp issue is NOT identified in words of the watermark, The base paper itself is usually a constant for a long time and there needs to be a margin of an inch or two around the edges of the print design to allow the printers and operators to handle the sheets and move them through the printer and perforation machines without damaging the design near the edges. The sheets go into a guillotine machine for trimming this waste away at the end. Pallets of paper that need to sit for any length of time at the print works often get a few waste sheets laid on top and then bound/strapped to the pallet so they can be moved around and the print itself is protected from general bumps and scrapes. Where I was working in the mid '90s we had two printers each about 30feet by 15 feet in size. They put out a LOT of heat and the inks made it a humid environment, we didn't use fibrous paper like newspapers, it was mostly glossy magazine stock papers and even then it was an uncomfortably dusty environment to be in and the printers requires a lost of maintenance and downtime to clean/repair. No wonder 80 or more years ago we see inking "issues" and marks from fibers getting in the way, it must have been a snowstorm at the time.

I would love to know about unwatermarked stamp issues in various issue series ( eg KGV sidefaces) as just making the paper and writing on the top sheet the client and sending it off to the printer would be most cost effective compared to still printing an empty watermarked frame. but I have seen a dodgy dealer selling a rare none watermarked stamp clearly showing a watermark border edge but you cant see any indication of the expected watermarked design. To me that makes the example a watermarked stamp still and worth less than $1, not the uncertified $5,000+ he was wanting for it.

Anyway as I've said watermarking is part of the paper makers process and the border frame markings are used to frame the watermark design pattern and I wouldn't expect them to be a part of the printer process. Paper first, watermark second, design print third, perforation last is the order of events. There is no way to be able to link the frame watermark to any issue as they are not made for identifying the stamp in anyway, the watermark pattern itself would be used for that. Plus printers would print their marks on the top in the edging to be trimmed when they needed them. Plus the watermark frame printing can be found in part on every single watermarked stamp issue though the layouts etc are meant to keep them off the stamp. Its a curiosity only really, NOT a print error or rare variety, though it would be an ambitious project to try to reconstruct a sheet using the watermark frame, the selvedge is where you commonly see the frame wording.
I hope this helps a little, especially our younger collectors who think a printer is that plastic box on the desk that is a pain to have to swap out an ink cartridge back 50+ yrs ago a printer was the size of a warehouse, requiring teams of people working around the clock to keep it running, even today they have to be kept running 24/7 to produce magazines, cd booklets, modern stamps. If they stop the cooling and fatigue causes parts to start to crack and liquids/lubricants to congeal and are still a nightmare to be near. I haven't a clue how the printer machine Victorian stamps would have been powered and if you've read horror books like Stephen King you can easily believe one of these print machines can eat a man whole. If you ever get a chance to see one in person you really should, they are the stuff of nightmares!
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
Australia
420 Posts
Posted 04/07/2021   10:14 pm  Show Profile Check fairdinkumstamps's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add fairdinkumstamps to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
There is no way to be able to link the frame watermark to any issue as they are not made for identifying the stamp in anyway


In fact with these stamps the frame watermark can be used to help narrow identification of the issue.

The 4d laureates were issued with three different watermarks, each having different marginal lettering on the sheet.

- double-lined 4 watermark (Perkins-Bacon paper borrowed from Tasmania)

- single-lined 4 (DLR and Saunders paper) with VICTORIA POSTAGE lettering on all four sides of the sheet. This lettering was double lined with serifs.

- V1 (V over Crown watermark) (DLR paper) with VICTORIA POSTAGE at the top and bottom of the sheet. This lettering was double lined without serifs.

The marginal lettering on dogfd's stamp in this thread is from the 1867-1881 V1 issues, showing VIC of VICTORIA without serifs.

Perf measurement and shade identification would determine the specific V1 issue.

Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
https://www.fairdinkumstamps.com Fair Dinkum Stamps - Specialising in stamps from early Australia and the colonies, Australian philatelic literature, catalogues, stockbooks and accessories.
Edited by fairdinkumstamps - 04/07/2021 10:16 pm
  Previous TopicReplies: 5 / Views: 299Next Topic  
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.


Go to Top of Page
Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Stamp Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2021 Stamp Community Family - All rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Stamp Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Privacy Policy / Terms of Use    Advertise Here
Stamp Community Forum © 2007 - 2021 Stamp Community Forums
It took 0.43 seconds to lick this stamp. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05