Stamp Community Family of Web Sites
Thousands of stamps, consistently graded, competitively priced and hundreds of in-depth blog posts to read
Stamp Community Forum
 
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some stamps?
Our stamp forum is completely free! Register Now!

Petersen Sale At Siegel Listed

Previous Page | Next Page    
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 41 / Views: 2,107Next Topic
Page: of 3
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
7100 Posts
Posted 04/04/2021   09:31 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
If you look at the balance lots you can kind of deduce that the first generation of this multi-generational collection effort did not have the means that the next generation had and thus the at times split personality.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
687 Posts
Posted 04/04/2021   11:29 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add funcitypapa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Rodg: I'm not referring to the balance lots, which I haven't even looked at. I'm just looking at a collector of significant wealth collecting certain rarities and not others and wondering why? Trepel in his introduction of the sale mentions the number of items with less than 100, 50, 20, etc known. The no grill pictorials appear to be between 20 and 50 and certainly 271a is not far behind, certainly in unused condition.

I don't have a clear idea of the true census of certified 78c.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
United States
66 Posts
Posted 04/28/2021   3:44 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Stephen J Bukowy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Regarding the Petersen collection, do we know that this is the full collection? Maybe why we don't see certain items is that they were pulled by heirs for their own collections/investments and the auction is what they decided not to keep.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
805 Posts
Posted 04/28/2021   11:56 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add mootermutt987 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
If you read the intro in the catalog, they describe the collection as a 3-generation collection. Son/Father/Grandfather. And it sounds like the current Peterson was the one that made the lion's share of the money. My guess is that some of the stamps that are being questioned here may have been obtained by one of the earlier collectors and they remain in the collection for sentimental purposes. I know I've got some of those that were handed down from my grandfather - nothing rare, but I'd have bought better condition. I hang on to them because they are a tie to my past. Just a guess, though.

Clearly, there are some stamps that only someone with money would buy, so maybe some were not purchased by Dad or Granddad. Perhaps the current Peterson isn't as obsessed with condition as many of the rest of us. Or, perhaps some are purchases early in his stamp endeavors and he has just hung on to them --- maybe even that is motivated by sentimentality.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by mootermutt987 - 04/28/2021 11:59 pm
Valued Member
Learn More...
United States
133 Posts
Posted 04/30/2021   4:56 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add BobInRye to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Gob stopped by the amounts several of the rarities hammered down. Thought I had a chance for the 321 pair, but $1.25million is too rich for my blood - especially given that the last one sold by Cherrystone in 2019 went for, I think, $720k. Granted, Petersen's pair looks like the best one available, but wow. The 294a invert block (78.5k over cat), 295a invert (30k over cat), 389 Orangeburg pair (34.5k over cat), and the 21 (40k over cat) all did well.

On the other hand, seeing the inverted Jenny go for $290k is telling. The 482A is a pretty sad example of a Schermack and at $10k (15% of cat), other buyers seem to have agreed. But on the whole, the up and down prices seemed to accurately reflect the mixed quality versus rarity of the collection.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
576 Posts
Posted 04/30/2021   6:36 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rismoney to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I can't stand the line "ONE OF THE KEYS TO A COMPLETE COLLECTION OF UNITED STATES STAMPS". Every stamp is key.







Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
7609 Posts
Posted 04/30/2021   8:50 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
A stamp that anyone can buy dozens of at any decent sized show is not "key". Only scarce to rare stamps can be "key" stamps.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
United States
272 Posts
Posted 04/30/2021   10:43 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add craigk to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
100% of 548 lots offered sold in 2 days
373 registered bidders and 135 successful buyers
$7,877,345 hammer 25% over the presale estimate and an average of $14,375 per lot
A total of $9,295,267 invoiced for U.S. stamps
The 2c 1908 vertical coil pair, Scott 321, realized $1,250,000 hammer
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
Learn More...
United States
133 Posts
Posted 04/30/2021   11:28 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add BobInRye to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Craig - nice quote from Scott Trepel's debrief e-mail. HOWEVER, I would kindly suggest that the house's estimates - which are unpublished - are not a good baseline. Sticking with the low end estimates published in the sale catalog, across the first three sessions, 78% of the catalog was realized. Now given the mixed quality, that's not a bad achievement, but please don't forget the couple of lots that went way over the top and dragged everything else up. 75% (273) of the 365 lots in the first three sessions went for less than the low estimate provided in the catalog. 3% (10) of the 365 lots equaled their low end estimate. 22% (82) of the lots exceeded the low end estimate. Nice performance, but doesn't feel liked the suggested victory. Now if the house published their internal estimates, that would make declaring victory based on them feel like a real accomplishment.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by BobInRye - 04/30/2021 11:32 pm
Pillar Of The Community
United States
616 Posts
Posted 05/01/2021   07:14 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add SPQR to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
75% (273) of the 365 lots in the first three sessions went for less than the low estimate provided in the catalog.

For many (most?) of the lots, Siegel lists the Scott catalog value. Are you using the catalog value as the "low estimate"? If so, it is not at all surprising that they didn't hit "low estimate" since that number is for a VF example and quality in the sale was not uniformly VF. Also, for cases where the Scott catalog value is based on recent auction realizations, the catalog value includes the buyers premium, so I would think you would need to add 18% to the hammer before comparing to catalog value.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
7100 Posts
Posted 05/01/2021   08:19 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, Siegel for the most part uses catalog value as the "estimate" and not some arbitrary value such as Kelleher often uses and rarely achieves. Given the percentage of catalog value that is so often realized in these types of auctions Siegel's results are quite admirable I think.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
7100 Posts
Posted 05/01/2021   08:23 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I would like to add an observation regarding the C3a sale. Could it be that there is such a thing as Jenny fatigue? Is the cache wearing off? The irony about the Jenny is that although rare there is always one regularly for sale. You do not have to wait years to find one and that is working against the value.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
576 Posts
Posted 05/01/2021   09:32 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rismoney to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Rogdcam - liquidity does impact price. C3a is its own category and attracts people outside the hobby. Hard to know how this will fare on any given Sunday. But I suspect a buyer will be happy knowing they didn't pay the most.

There were only 135 successful buyers so you are looking at 4 lots per winner on average. At 14k per lot, (I think some data normalization should occur - ie 321 removed), you are looking at 50k per bidder spent.

Not sure how this compares to previous sales but it is not encouraging. It feels like consolidation, and I would suspect that the distribution is far more skewed toward a few buyers buying many lots, and 130 people buying 1 lot due to wealth availability. Pure conjecture.

As far as the valuations, something is very broken and has been. Markets are speaking and the prices of many things need serious adjustment up and down. Quality and availability are fighting forces. Quality items locked away in collections will drive prices up for lesser available versions. Sometimes you have to take what the market provides or you get nothing.

I believe a lot of smart money bought many of these these lots at "discounted" levels.




Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
United States
1208 Posts
Posted 05/01/2021   09:52 am  Show Profile Check rlsny's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add rlsny to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Any generalization about this auction is bound to fail. It was more like two auctions in one. On the one hand - amazing rarities commanding incredible prices. On the other hand many stamps found in a typical "US Stamps" auction. The average was over $14k but there were dozens of stamps that were sold for just hundreds and low thousands. There were more 6-figure sales at this auction than I can remember ever seeing in a single auction. 9.3 million invoiced is going to put this auction in the record books - top 10 ever - I don't know - but there is no way to make this out as a disappointment.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
Learn More...
United States
133 Posts
Posted 05/01/2021   1:55 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add BobInRye to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Sales data shown below is for the first three sessions. Standard distribution points appear.


I am missing a buyer for one lot so my count of buyers could be off by 1.

Removing real outliers in the auction (Sc 82 to a 1-lot buyer T $660K; 3-lot buyer who got 321, 394a block and 389 pair totaling $1.78mill) changes the stats as follows:


Overall % Cat realized drops from 78% to 65% which just shows how much the really big lots can raise overall auction performance. But what I'd really like to see is Siegel's own internal estimates as they would seem to be far more accurate than Scott - surprise, surprise.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Page: of 3 Previous TopicReplies: 41 / Views: 2,107Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.


Go to Top of Page
Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Stamp Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2021 Stamp Community Family - All rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Stamp Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Privacy Policy / Terms of Use    Advertise Here
Stamp Community Forum © 2007 - 2021 Stamp Community Forums
It took 0.29 seconds to lick this stamp. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05