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So who's afraid of the Indian States?  
 

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Pillar Of The Community
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Posted 04/12/2010   02:21 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add spock1k to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
yes dungarpur is not too far
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United States
5703 Posts
Posted 04/12/2010   1:09 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Cjd to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
There is something about the second issues of Dhar that I find appealing. The catalogue illustrations apparently failed to grab me before this.

I gave a cursory look, and don't see that I have any, so they go on the list, too.

Thanks.

Collin
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Australia
3547 Posts
Posted 04/12/2010   7:21 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add tonymacg to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The anorexic elephants, Colin?



I could probably put together a set of them for you, if you were keen enough.
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Pillar Of The Community
Australia
3547 Posts
Posted 04/12/2010   8:20 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add tonymacg to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Duttia (Datia) is justly popular - its stamps have a certain elemental appeal - but don't even think of completing the State. A one-of-each collection of the cheapest versions of SG 1 to 7 catalogues at just short of 50,000, assuming you could find copies for sale

This cover with SG 2 and 3



sold at auction for 36,500 in 2006. It isn't, and never was, in my collection, I regret to say.

So let's forget about the first three issues of Duttia, between 1894 and 1896, and start with the 1897 set. This is quite bad, or good, enough:



SG 11d

A couple of points to note:
All stamps of Duttia were supposed to be stamped with the blue control mark you can see on the stamp. This does not mean the stamp is used.
These stamps were printed from two single dies, which differ in the size of the image of the god Ganesh in the centre.

Also in 1897, a set of four values was released with the name of the State spelled 'DATIA', SG 12-15. This is the 'correct' spelling, and it's how you'll find the name written on maps from the time and today. I don't know why the printers preferred to stick with the old-fashioned spelling 'DUTTIA'. Perhaps collectors had become familiar with it.

Here is a strip of the 4 Anna value, SG 15, with the last stamp cancelled (by favour, or course)



After this, the printers reverted to 'DUTTIA' in a sans-serif font for the rest of Duttia's philatelic life, which ended in 1921.

These issues, from 1899 onwards, tend to be rather more accessible. Gibbons list several at down to 2.75. If you own any stamps from Duttia at all, it will probably be one of the Annas from 1899-1906, SG 16a to 16e:



(SG 16b)

For a bit of variety, the printers used coloured papers as well



SG 17bb - the Anna, which comes in other shades of green paper, and



SG 20 - the 4 Anna

The printers then turned out a stream of variations on this theme: perf and imperf, with plain rouletting and rouletted in colour, set wide and set narrow, different colours and even occasionally different coloured control marks, in different sized sheets.



SG 25c, and



SG 25

SG 38 is a particular favourite. It was issued in convenient sheets of 31



probably because the last stamp on the top row was defective, and was removed before printing commenced. This must have made life interesting for the post office clerks balancing their books at the end of the day, with each sheet being worth 7 annas instead of 8 annas (or half a rupee).

This block also shows the variant control mark in black, instead of the normal blue.

As I said above, the control mark is not to be taken as a cancellation. There are two types of cancellation you're likely to meet from Duttia:



(on a washed out SG 17, the 1899-1906 Anna) and



SG 16, the accompanying Anna

So that's Duttia: a lot of fun, as long as you don't try to take it seriously.

As a footnote, I have 1":8 mile maps of Duttia (and Barwani, Bhopal and Dhar) from around 1908. If you'd like a scan, just send me an email, and I'll be happy to send you a copy.
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United States
5703 Posts
Posted 04/12/2010   8:26 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Cjd to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I could probably put together a set of them for you, if you were keen enough.


Well, I'm keen...I don't know if I'm keen enough. I'll email you and find out.

Collin
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Pillar Of The Community
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Posted 04/13/2010   01:58 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add spock1k to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
yeah if you have spare copies I would be interested too Tony. I have a blanket poilcy for india and indian states. they have to be mint as issued :)( that settles the gum and no gum argument)
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Australia
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Posted 04/13/2010   02:15 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add tonymacg to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Spock, sorry: if I could put together another set, it would have to be mint hinged.
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Australia
3547 Posts
Posted 04/13/2010   8:05 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add tonymacg to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
We can deal with Faridkot fairly quickly. This is a shame, because its stamps were rather attractive.

Faridkot issued two values in 1879



1 Folus (= anna = 3 pies), SG N5, and



1 Paisa (= anna = 3 pies), SG N6

These appeared on various types of paper, but all were printed from single dies struck as many times across the sheet as required. (You can find examples showing ruled pencil lines, to help with placement of the strikes.)

And that disposes of the genuine postal types ...

A design similar to the 1 Paisa type was prepared



but was not actually released for use before the State Post Office closed in 1885. These stamps are quite common, and were listed as regular issues once.

I find the easiest way to distinguish these from the fully postal types is the curved line above the lettering at the top centre of the stamps. The new type has a distinct kink in the line at around 1 o'clock



but the original type doesn't



In 1885, Faridkot agreed to enter a Postal Convention with British India. This required Faridkot to give up the use of its own stamps, and use British Indian stamps overprinted 'FARIDKOT STATE'. They are very dull, and I don't want to be bothered with them.

Despite the Convention, though, the Faridkot authorities realized they were onto a good thing with these sales to collectors. They continued to sell off original remainders, then the unissued type, and then a half anna type which had been prepared but never issued



and then reprints of the originals in different colours, and rough imitations, properly printed, in all sorts of colours. These turn up regularly to confuse collectors. They have little value, but they can, in fact, be quite highly specialized. Believe it or not, there are forgeries of these reprints
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Pillar Of The Community
2663 Posts
Posted 04/14/2010   01:43 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add spock1k to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
yes pretty soon most of these will be lost to philately when exct replicas will be made and most wont be able to tell the difference
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Australia
3547 Posts
Posted 04/14/2010   02:06 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add tonymacg to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
There are plenty of fakes around already, some made with the original plates and cancelling devices. They can produce some pretty authentic-looking products, too. Fortunately, the fakers often screw up. There are numbers of covers like these, purporting to be from Jammu & Kashmir on the market:





all originating from Maharajganj. The covers are genuine British Indian usages, to which genuine Jammu & Kashmir stamps have been added with fake cancels. Unfortunately for these gentlemen, they forgot that the Jammu & Kashmir Post Office closed in 1894.
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Posted 04/14/2010   07:33 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add spock1k to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
hahaha

i wonder when these guys will get brains ut I am not going to wait. tony power you the engines we are going to complete the state collection before forgers ruin it.

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Pillar Of The Community
Australia
3547 Posts
Posted 04/14/2010   07:45 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add tonymacg to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Maybe some day, when I've recovered from this thread, I might try and do one on the forgeries and fakes of the Indian States that exist. It's almost as big a field as the genuine stamps, though. And unlike the genuine stamps, new items keep on appearing.
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Pillar Of The Community
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Posted 04/14/2010   09:06 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add spock1k to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
certainly not you havent reached z yet. you have to finish this thrad before you can go to the next one

also name the next thread a chat with spock
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Pillar Of The Community
Australia
3547 Posts
Posted 04/14/2010   09:27 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add tonymacg to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
No, I simply refuse to go beyond the letter W

And are you entirely sure you want your name associated with a discussion of fakes, forgeries, reprints and imitations?
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2663 Posts
Posted 04/15/2010   08:17 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add spock1k to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
of course I am your friend so that was bound to happen sooner or later :)

are you done with tonyland yet or is there more coming from Barwani :)
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