Stamp Community Family of Web Sites
Thousands of stamps, consistently graded, competitively priced and hundreds of in-depth blog posts to read
Stamp Community Forum
 
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some stamps?
Our stamp forum is completely free! Register Now!

Switzerland Helvetia 1882-1904 Identification

Next Page    
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 17 / Views: 647Next Topic
Page: of 2
Valued Member

Greece
15 Posts
Posted 04/17/2021   03:02 am  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add basilisp to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hi guys,
I've got those three stamps from Switzerland and I'm trying to identify. I have the zumstein catalogue but it can be confusing to be sure.
- The "3fr" one should be 13 vertical dents and it looks like the 1894 one.
- The "50" one has 14 vertical dents and it should be the 1882 one.
- The "30" one has 13 vertical dents and it could be 1894 or the more expensive 1907.

Can you help me on those?
Thank you





Send note to Staff
Edited by basilisp - 04/17/2021 1:45 pm

Pillar Of The Community
804 Posts
Posted 04/17/2021   04:03 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The perforatin gauge is the number of perforations per 2 centimetres. You appear to simply count the total number of perforation tips. But the 14 vertical tips should be a near 12-gauge stamp and the vertical 13 tips should be a near 11-gauge stamp.

You should also check the watermark. Is there a small cross in an oval or are there Swiss crosses?

Based on the count of perforation tips, your 30 rappen stamp is unlikely to be the 1907 one. The 1907 one is on granite paper. Look at the watermark. The 1907 stamp has the Swiss crosses watermark.
A good perforation gauge should help you confirm the 50 rappen stamp is the 1882 one.

For the 3 Francs one, again the watermark is important.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by NSK - 04/17/2021 04:04 am
Pillar Of The Community
United States
2321 Posts
Posted 04/17/2021   04:15 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hy-brasil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
First of all, you are going to need a perforation gauge. Counting teeth or holes is not how it is done unless the gauge is already known. Individual stamps can vary in size. There is one that can be downloaded at Stamp Smarter:
https://stampsmarter.org/Learning/F...rfGauge.html
Or one can be purchased.

The horizontal measurement is also needed in these cases. See what you come up with and compare with the Zumstein listings and report your results here. It is important to check all sides and more than one time since mismeasurements are easy with these.

There are also watermarks to be taken into account, 3 different for these issues. See Zumstein again, which will have illustrations of the watermarks. See Stamp Smarter if you need information on watermarking.

One thing to help is that you have dated cancels. The 3fr looks like 1893 or 1898. The 50c cancel date looks to be 189?, so it is almost certainly not the 1882 one. People did not normally save stamps for many years in those days to use later. The 30c is dated 1907 so could be any of 3 possibilities.


Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by hy-brasil - 04/17/2021 04:16 am
Pillar Of The Community
804 Posts
Posted 04/17/2021   06:55 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I would not rule out an 1897-date for that 30 rappen stamp. The break appears a bit to clear to be certain it was a 0.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by NSK - 04/17/2021 06:57 am
Valued Member
Greece
15 Posts
Posted 04/17/2021   07:59 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add basilisp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I just updated the first post. I admit that I didn't know about the perforation, thank you so much for your help. You can see new pictures on top. Confusing to say the least...
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
7394 Posts
Posted 04/17/2021   10:34 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Petert4522 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Basilisp, it is not confusing. Just match up the round holes in the stamp with the round holes on the gauge.
You are putting the stamps' round holes in the square holes of the gauge ???


Peter
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
Greece
15 Posts
Posted 04/17/2021   1:49 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add basilisp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I edited again the first post
On the zumstein catalogue I read about vertical dents
- The "3fr" one should be 13 vertical dents and it looks like the 1894 one.
- The "50" one has 14 vertical dents and it should be the 1882 one.
- The "30" one has 13 vertical dents and it could be 1894 or the more expensive 1907.

Also I read on Zumstein that the perforation is 11 3/4 and on my gauge I've got onle 11, 11 1/2, 12 . This is why I posted the gauge and stamp pictures as well. Can you help me some more with those details or do I need to do something else?
Thank you very much!!
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
804 Posts
Posted 04/17/2021   2:28 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
For all stamps: check the watermark. Is the cross in an oval or not.

That 30 rappen looks like a perf 11. That corresponds to the 13 perforations. That would mean it cannot be the 1907 one. Although it is difficult to assess the colour, almost certainly, this is not the rather dark brown colour of the 1907 issue. Nor does it appear to be granite paper. Vertical perforation 11 and the light brown colour it appears to be makes it a printing from either 1891 or 1895. Again, you should check the watermark. I expect you will find it is a small cross in an oval instead of Swiss crosses without the oval.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
Greece
15 Posts
Posted 04/18/2021   12:18 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add basilisp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi again,
I've been trying to see a watermark but it seems to me that there none. On many Swiss stamps I own, you can see it clearly but not on those. I made some pictures from the back of the stamps against the light so you can see it. Thank you again!


Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
Greece
15 Posts
Posted 04/20/2021   12:53 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add basilisp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Good day guys,
So the information that I provided are enough for identification?
I can't do it by myself...
Thank you
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
2321 Posts
Posted 04/20/2021   01:57 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hy-brasil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Frankly, no, you have not provided enough information at all.

If you can't see the watermarks, then how do you expect us to see them, particularly with blurred images taken in a darkened room? Using watermark fluid is the answer. Even then, with this issue, the first two types in oval sometimes might not be told apart in some cases. Do you know how this is used?


Quote:
I can't do it by myself...

It seems that you trying to do just that. For example, I gave you the source for a perf gauge that would give you the 11 3/4 measurement exactly but did you even look at it? And in any case would not 11 3/4 be close to but not quite fit 11 1/2 and 12?

The "vertical dents" are an additional distinction added to differentiate the first issue from later ones. Measure the perfs using your gauge and report your findings here. Perf gauge and the watermark type are the essential parts of proper identification of each stamp.

Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
Greece
15 Posts
Posted 04/22/2021   08:18 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add basilisp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I'd like to apologize because it looks that I wanted other people to do the job for me. Since I'm a beginner in stamps, I thought that you can see the watermarks in the light and I couldn't see it (obviously). I read a bit and I bought zippo fluid, now I can see the watermarks. Thank you for pointing in the right direction.
Also to be honest, I saw only the first perf meter and I didn't scroll down to see the second that has all the numbers.
You are right, forgive my ignorance and not my laziness.

Thank you,
Vasilis
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
Greece
15 Posts
Posted 04/22/2021   08:42 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add basilisp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
So I use those things I learned about the stamps and I can say the followings:

1) 30, perf 11, watermark cross without the oval.
2) 3fr, perf 11, watermark cross without the oval.
3) 50, perf 11 3/4, I can't see any watermark.

Now can you identify those stamps?
Thank you
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
Greece
15 Posts
Posted 04/25/2021   02:00 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add basilisp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Is there any online catalogue I could get advise from? Or do I need to buy one?
And what do you think about those 3 stamps? The one that doesn't have a watermark is it a fake? Many questions that I can't answer.

Thank you
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
2321 Posts
Posted 04/25/2021   03:30 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hy-brasil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Apology accepted. Let's continue.

With many of these Standing Helvetia stamps, the oval types are so strongly impressed that you can easily see them without holding them up to the light. The all crosses watermark should be easily seen when held to the light from a house lamp. But in the real world, life is not so easy. But something should be there. You are not used to seeing it, therefore it is not clear to you. As should be explained in Zumstein, the ovals are basically embossed into the paper, sometimes weakly, sometimes pressed out by collectors for whatever reason.

You have a Zumstein which has the all the information you need. You have the 50c blue identified as perf 11-3/4, which I think you have done correctly. The 14 vertical teeth (not holes) as Zumstein says helps confirm that. Now the additional clue here is the cancel. The last two arabic-type numerals in the date of the cancel look to be 91, which means 1891. Now we need to go through all the issues and find that only one 50c blue perf 11-3/4 exists, Zumstein 70A. The cancel agrees with that issue date since this issue was not completely replaced by the follwoing issue from 1888.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
2321 Posts
Posted 04/25/2021   04:17 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hy-brasil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Now the others are a small problem. There are no stamps perf 11 all around if you check Zumstein, which is indeed complete in its basic stamp listings. They've been around as long as or longer than these stamps. Place the top of either the 30c or 3fr against the side of the other and you will probably find the teeth don't match/line up exactly. The easy guess is that the top and bottom measurements are incorrect and probably are 11-1/2.

Perfs are measured by aligning the center of each stamp tooth with the center of each tooth on the gauge. On that other style StampSmarter gauge it is the exact intersection of the lines. They should match perfectly when the correct gauge is selected in most every case. This is a fairly precise measurement and needs to be carefully done.

Plus, remember that I advised to check all sides. This is because this issue can be reperfed on a side to try to eliminate damage, sometimes in an incorrect gauge. I don't see reperfing here.

So, on to the 30c.

I have to assume at this point that you are almost correct in your perf measurement. Again, we are lucky to have the cancel year date of 07 (1907) here. So if this is perf 11-1/2 x 11, then we have a choice of two issues the 30c could come from.

One choice is Zumstein 96B which the catalog tells you has faserpapier, granite paper in English. For this issue, there are very fine blue and red pieces of thread scattered within the paper. These are mostly quite short. You may or may not need a magnifier to see them, and they are more easily seen from the back of the stamp. But from the large view you have given us, I don't see any of those thread pieces. Then I would guess that this is Zumstein 88A. If it is that, then it must have the multiple crosses watermark.

Zumstein 68D is an outside possibility but would have the second oval watermark instead. But since Zumstein 88A was first issued in 1905, it is really unnlikely that 68D would have still been around to use.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by hy-brasil - 04/25/2021 05:13 am
Page: of 2 Previous TopicReplies: 17 / Views: 647Next Topic  
Next Page
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.


Go to Top of Page
Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Stamp Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2021 Stamp Community Family - All rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Stamp Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Privacy Policy / Terms of Use    Advertise Here
Stamp Community Forum © 2007 - 2021 Stamp Community Forums
It took 0.3 seconds to lick this stamp. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05