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Can New Technical Developments Change "Decline Opinion" PF 1996 Cert On #1 And 6lb11 On Cover?

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Posted 04/18/2021   09:03 am  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add Dutch US Stamp Collector to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
i got this because I like the 2 #1 and at a price judging the local is applied afterwards.

i was wondering if new techniques would make the PF have an opinion, even if it is means it proofs is not original on this cover?

i am considering, if not original, to remove the local, but only if proven so

side question: anyone recognize the certifiers/owners marking? I read Pruschold with double .. on U, so German? Bundesprüfer Pröschold?

thank you all in advance for helping me with this one.





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Posted 04/18/2021   09:15 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Not sure about 'new techniques' but the knowledgebase has certainly grown over time. Have you search Richard's Philamercury site for more info?
Don
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Posted 04/18/2021   09:21 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Dutch US Stamp Collector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Don, nice site, thank you for the link, 3 cover on it, no messages found on Richard's Philamercury message board for 6lb11
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Posted 04/18/2021   09:58 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add SPQR to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Dutch - look on the US Philatelic Classics Society webpage at the census of 1847 Issue covers https://www.uspcs.org/resource-cent...over-census/ Click on "Advanced Search" and then put "6LB11" in the "Other Stamps" search box for a listing of known covers with that carrier stamp


Quote:
I was wondering if new techniques would make the PF have an opinion

I purchased an 1847 issue cover with a Philly carrier stamp at auction a few years ago that came with an older decline opinion PFC. It got a good cert on resubmission. Your results may differ.

I am considering, if not original, to remove the local, but only if proven so
I would STRONGLY recommend that you not remove the carrier stamp, even if the PF says it did not originate.

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Posted 04/18/2021   10:10 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add SPQR to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
My cover with a 6LB11 carrier stamp
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Posted 04/18/2021   10:32 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The people at the PF looking at it now would be different from 1996. One of them would be Larry Lyons, who wrote the carriers and locals book.
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Posted 04/18/2021   11:04 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cjpalermo1964 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Are the carrier labels ever seen tied by a cancel to the cover?
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Posted 04/18/2021   11:10 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Dutch US Stamp Collector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
spqr, super interesting! link, thnak you and nice cover you have! and close dated to mine, mar 16 and mar 28

revcollector, thank you, I will do some more due diligence and probably re-submit, if so of course I will update
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Posted 04/18/2021   11:25 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add SPQR to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Are the carrier labels ever seen tied by a cancel to the cover?

The carrier stamps are sometimes tied by a Post Office CDS, and those covers bring a premium.
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Posted 04/18/2021   4:34 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hy-brasil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I'm thinking it would require new tech, namely something on the order of the VSC6000/HS that Vincent Graves Greene Foundation has. I'd explain your quandary, asking the PF directly if something newer than what they had available in 1996 might possibly answer the question one way or another.

Then again, how petty/nitpicking is the PF today? I recall an Epirus cover with #1-4 (the skull and crossbones stamps) that was sent to the PF. Philatelic, but still very scarce. It was returned as genuine but the cert stated that it had a stamp that did not belong. It does not appear in their certificate archive or active database.

Anyway, that opinion pleased no one, so the untied stamp was professionally removed and the cover resubmitted. It came back as genuine "with stamp that did not belong removed". So whatever happens, if it were up to me, I would leave the local on the cover no matter what.
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Posted 04/18/2021   4:50 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Dutch US Stamp Collector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
i would like to thank everyone, I have decided to send to PF for a new cert. and no matter what the outcome is, I will keep it on cover

decision was made based on all the input I received here and a friendly, and super fast, e mail back from a certifying expert who was friendly enough to look at it by mail who thinks I have a good chance of getting it back approved.

i will update of course, could take a while

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Posted 04/18/2021   5:44 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add wtcrowe to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The Decline Opinion was generated by the absence of any marking showing that the carrier stamp was needed on this cover. Remove the stamp and it is a perfectly acceptable usage of two 5c 1847 stamps paying a two times rate to Washington DC from New York City. The Scott Catalogue gives a value of $3,000 for the usage with an uncancelled carrier stamp and a certificate. I have owned 1847 covers with the carrier stamp added, one with a stamp that was sold off cover in 1922. The usage is plausible, but I am not sure it is provable. I believe the PF now has a VSC 6000 machine. No such machine was available at the time of the original certificate.
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Posted 04/19/2021   04:25 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Dutch US Stamp Collector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
i had to look up what a vsc 6000 is, holy %$#@ that is a cool machine.on my x mas list from now on...and 4 ever ;-)

Don, SQPR, Hy brazil, revcollector and Wtcrowe, thank you for taking the time to help
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Posted 04/19/2021   05:00 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The VSC6000 is 20+ years old (first came out in 2008) and the VSC8000 is the current technology. As the name implies it is a Video Spectral Comparator. Two things to note, first is 'spectral'. In other words, range of light. This device simply uses multiple light wavelengths to image the patient. By changing the ambient lighting wavelengths and at different angles much can be learned about a stamp/document. This is why some of us beat on the 'ambient lighting' drum in stamp color threads and posts. Ambient lighting is criteria and this is why it is inane to have stamp color threads without defining ambient lighting.
The second thing to note about the name is 'comparator'. A VSC6000 does not analyze something and tell you what it is or isn't based upon molecular analysis or some other chemical discovery. It can only compare how light waves bounce off the surface of the paper/stamp compared to a library that you give it. So the key to accuracy and using the machine to its fullest capability is all about the library. So it is important to know the quality of the library, understanding how the library gets populated, understanding how the library revisions are maintained.

If the organization has previously used the VSC on cover with this local stamp that they know is legitimate (i.e. tied local) then the quality and confidence of comparing your cover goes up. If not, then they may have similar era covers with other locals which they can use for comparison. Not as good as the same local, but should still provide a degree of confidence.
Don
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Posted 04/19/2021   05:48 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Dutch US Stamp Collector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
super interesting Don. the PF have comparison as they have a tied cover in their collection, or at least in their experts collection, as far as I have found out.

my x mas list has now 1 item less as I have no sufficient ref collection ;-)

sometimes, actually often, you amaze me with your knowledge Don
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Posted 04/19/2021   08:07 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I could find no record of the handstamp being an experts mark so I assume it is an owner's.
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