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Qv Penny Red, Some Help With Dating A Cover

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Posted 04/25/2021   3:36 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jony78 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

COVER NUMBER 2

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Posted 04/25/2021   3:39 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Why would the stamp be cancelled Helensburgh, then struck CDS at back as well ?
Is this common for GB ?
(Same with Glasgow , front and back 2 strikes)
Helensburgh to Airdrie =49 Km
Airdrie to Holytown = 5Km

Also the front stamp obliterators, are they Pearson Hill machines?
(I have yet to research)

The new cover, nice perforation error !
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Edited by rod222 - 04/25/2021 3:49 pm
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Posted 04/25/2021   4:05 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Rod, 176 is Helensburgh.

If I understand John G. Hendy correctly, the obliterator type dates from 1854. The perf. 16 stamp from plate 167 - I assume it has been identified correctly - on blued paper is an 1854 issue.

The 1853-date on a perf. 16 Penny Red suggests an Archer trial. But nothing else fits that.

The more I look at it, the more things I see that may not be correct. The "1" on the envelope and stamp do not line up. It looks like there is an obliterator below the "176" obliterator. Is it a 1 and not a trace of a 3? The Helensburg date stamp appears to overlap one with another date. The heaviest inking of the obliterator is the northeast corner. But that is where the stamp does not appear to be tied to the entire, whereas the corner of the obliterator is missing. The lower perforations on the left show traces of cancellation, but there is no further evidence of that.


Quote:
Why would the stamp be cancelled Helensburgh, then struck CDS at back as well ?
Is this common for GB ?


Yes. One is an obliterator to invalidate the stamp. The other is a date stamp for purpose of knowing when it was received by the postal service.
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Edited by NSK - 04/25/2021 4:24 pm
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Posted 04/25/2021   4:46 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I do not understand the second cover. It is addressed to York, has a London (?) postmark, but has backstamps for Glasgow and then for some obscure town in Lanarkshire a day after that. How did they get there? Glasgow and Holytown are not in the same country as London and York.


Quote:
The new cover, nice perforation error !


It would be considered "bad centring." This is quite common for the perforation of the time. One with good centring would command a premium.
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Edited by NSK - 04/25/2021 4:49 pm
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Posted 04/25/2021   10:02 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I do not understand the second cover. It is addressed to York, has a London (?) postmark, but has backstamps for Glasgow and then for some obscure town in Lanarkshire a day after that. How did they get there? Glasgow and Holytown are not in the same country as London and York.


You have lost me there NSK York? London?
I am not seeing that.

Cover 2 = Glasgow to Holytown (Pronounced "Hollytown") = 14.5 miles

Thanks for the confirmation on 2 strikes (a lot of work for clerks)
"Bad centreing" That, to my mind is VERY generous.

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Edited by rod222 - 04/25/2021 10:32 pm
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Posted 04/26/2021   01:01 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bobby De La Rue to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Not sure what's going on here.

I'm seeing the same cover front on page 1 and 2. London Inland cancel 40, posted to York. Norwood SO receiving office handstamp at the top on the back, London paid CD in red on back, York arrival CD 1 October 1854 on back.

As for perforation, this would fall into the first official perforated issue. Because of the centering I don't have the experience to plate the stamp.

Hope this info helps!

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Edited by Bobby De La Rue - 04/26/2021 01:06 am
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Posted 04/26/2021   01:13 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Bobby... this is "The Twilight Zone"
I cannot see any London

Here is what I see

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Posted 04/26/2021   01:24 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamps101 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I also am seeing the same front cover picture for both - not what rod showed a screenshot of.
I assume NSK is also experiencing that, hence the reply given
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Posted 04/26/2021   01:29 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bobby De La Rue to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Rod. My cache is always cleared, which might be why I'm seeing the London cover front on both pages.

The Glasgow cover is cancelled with the 159 of Glasgow. The address is R.C. Manse. Glasgow & Hollytown backstamps.

Interesting misperfs on the Glasgow cover!
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Posted 04/26/2021   01:36 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Perhaps I recall if one uses the same Image text string on SCF, with 2 differing images, the latter supersedes ?
Maybe I need to clear my cache?
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Edited by rod222 - 04/26/2021 01:46 am
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Posted 04/26/2021   01:47 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
In OP's post "COVER NUMBER 2" at the top of page 2, I see a cover addressed to Lendal ( a street in the centre of York), York. The Penny Red has a barred obliterator with the number 40 in a lozenge. That is a London cancel. The back of a cover in the same post shows a Glasgow receiving mark for OCT 13 1854 and for Holytown for OCT 14 1854.

Mail from London to York, both in England, did not pass through Scotland, where the back cover in that post went. So, either the front and back in the post are two different entires, or something is off.

I appear to be seeing the cover Bobby De La Rue describes on page 2. The front that Rod's screen print shows, I do not see. And I am using two laptops, one I have not used since Friday.

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Posted 04/26/2021   02:32 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I deleted my browing history and now I am seeing the same cover on page 1 as on page 2, but with a different back that fits that cover: a mourning cover to York, receiving date stamp for OC 1 1854.
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Posted 04/26/2021   02:38 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
For the record, the back of the Glasgow to Holytown cover.

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Posted 04/26/2021   03:06 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
That, I do see on page 2, together with the front with York address. I see a different back on page 1.

The screen print of the front with the Glasgow "159" obliterator Rod shows also show a nice perforation error. The one with the York address shows a badly centred perforation.
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Edited by NSK - 04/26/2021 03:09 am
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Posted 04/27/2021   12:26 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jony78 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
apologies for delay, I have no idea whats gone on with the images, I haven't edited anything but they are all my images?
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