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Find The Reperf Challenge

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Posted 05/22/2021   12:15 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Since between the two certs three of the four sides were called out I will stick with all four being fake. Reperforated is the wrong term for these things and I hate when expertizers use it. If some missing or damaged perfs were added entirely or portions added to existing perfs it would be reperforated hence the "re" part but if they are added to a straight edge that is not REperforated, that is perforations added. I believe that the PF would say "counterfeit perforations".
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Posted 05/22/2021   12:44 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The Philatelic Foundation places the definitions on line for all to see.

https://www.philatelicfoundation.or...forationlink --


Quote:
(PF)Expertizing Terms and Condition Standards for Stamps


Reperforated Stamp: A stamp on which the perforations have been fraudulently added at a later time, by someone other than the printer or issuing authority, to imitate, simulate or change the original perforations.

Improved Perforation:
Where several perforations, but not all, have been manipulated to enhance appearance, such as by the punching out of unpunched perfs.
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Edited by Parcelpostguy - 05/22/2021 12:46 am
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Posted 05/22/2021   02:51 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add mootermutt987 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I find it interesting and ironic that there is absolutely no consensus here. The 2 certs disagree 100% and the responses here have ranged from 0 to 4 sides reperfed. About the only thing that we (well, most of us) can agree upon is that the stamp is reperfed. If this were Jeopardy!, this question (actually, if it were Jeopardy! it would need to be in the form of a statement, and our responses would have to be in the form of a question - Jeopardy! dork here.) would have to be thrown out - none of the experts can come up with the same answer.

("American Stamps for $2000, please, Alex.")
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Posted 05/22/2021   06:45 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add m and m to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
after viewing the evidence and certs presented, I stick with my original opinion of all four sides reperforated.
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Posted 05/22/2021   07:43 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
We are only looking at a scan, not the actual stamp. So it's very difficult to make an accurate judgement about the perfs.
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Posted 05/22/2021   07:57 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
PPG - I know what the published PF definitions are. That does not mean that they always make sense. Nor do they always go by their own definitions. LOL
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Posted 05/22/2021   09:31 am  Show Profile Check sinclair2010's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add sinclair2010 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Is the OP image a photo or a scan?
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Posted 05/22/2021   09:52 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jogil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Can a comparison be made against a genuine known copy? Now even a so-called genuine copy could be called into question.
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Edited by jogil - 05/22/2021 09:52 am
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Posted 05/22/2021   11:27 am  Show Profile Check rlsny's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add rlsny to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It is a scan at 1200 dpi.

This is my take. Opinions based on the scan range from not reperfed, to all 4 sides reperfed. The PF said top/left reperfed. The PSE had that cert in hand and gave a different opinion that in fact those two sides were not reperfed. It is simply a case where none of us are in a better position to judge. Maybe rogdcam is right and the PF would change their view, or maybe they would go back to their original view. We cannot really know. There are two certs that say it is authentic but partly reperfed. I have to just go with that and leave it to any future buyer to make their own choices.
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Edited by rlsny - 05/22/2021 12:16 pm
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Posted 05/22/2021   11:41 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Did either certification organizations use multiple experts? Without knowing which experts actually laid eyes on the stamp forming an accurate opinion on the cert discrepancy is virtually impossible.
Don

Edit: In terms of transparency certs are like the anonymous opinions posted in this forum except that you pay good money for them.
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Posted 05/22/2021   11:47 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rismoney to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Not my area, but I believe all 4 sides are reperf and think rogdcam is correct. I believe both certs are correct in their perf assessment, however this was a jumbo imperf reperfed to become a 461.
There are suspect perforations on all 4 sides.

Left 3rd from bottom too rectangular to be torn, in correlation with other "rips".
Perfs on top go left to middle with nicely rounded to barely round.
The right is a mess. Some indentations aren't even shaped right.
Bottom roundness variations.





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Posted 05/22/2021   12:39 pm  Show Profile Check rlsny's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add rlsny to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It should be noted there is also a small color difference between the imperf and perf 11 stamps.
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Posted 05/22/2021   1:49 pm  Show Profile Check eyeonwall's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add eyeonwall to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
"Since perfs are done by machine and not by hand, logically, all perfs should be in a staight line wthout any of them farther in or farther out."

The pins can get bent and it is possible to have a legit hole out of line.
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Posted 05/22/2021   2:01 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
"Did either certification organizations use multiple experts?"

They both certainly did them in house, using the multiple experts who would have been working there at the time. I doubt that either would have felt it necessary to go outside of their normal experts.
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Posted 05/22/2021   4:11 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jogil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Certificates do only give opinions which hopefully have expert backing, knowledge, experience and perhaps even some science behind them. For perforations made from perforating wheels, they are oval shaped in the direction of perforating and the holes should show some paper fibre tear trail in them and also tear fibres on the teeth from being separated. Some use the Kiusalas gauge to determine perforation gauge and the size of the perforating holes. Also trying the Srail method of comparing perforated sides with each other for matching helps. See if the perforation are straight enough on each side. Compare against another copy that is considered to be genuine. One of the best books on this topic of reperforations is "How to Detect Damaged, Altered and Repaired Stamps" by Paul W. Schmid.
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Edited by jogil - 05/22/2021 4:17 pm
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