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Perforation Anomaly On Mongolian Stamp

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Posted 09/13/2021   12:54 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add redwoodrandy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
p.s.Edward Younger kindly accepted the "red overprint" stamp for return. Need another headache. Authorities such as Herbert Bloch and Livingstone have certified off cover"red overprints as genuine." The Russia Journal states that no "red overprints" on cover have been deemed genuine and were not used/printed in the correct time frame and my words were (backdated?) and back cancelled? OUCH!

Half of what is said about Mongolia stamps are lies and the other half are untrue.
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Edited by redwoodrandy - 09/13/2021 02:36 am
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Posted 09/13/2021   06:19 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add paulsonja to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
From Stamp Forgeries:



16-23. Handstamp overprinted revenue stamps, 1926. Forged overprints by Chtabinsky, Louschnikoff, Golding, Chun, and others and the Alton Bulak forged overprints and forgeries by Sekula and Refky of both the basic revenue stamp and overprint: Alfred Orth, "The 1926 Overprints Of Mongolia: Only One Type Of Overprint", Journal of Chinese Philately, Vol. 26 (February 1979): 57-63, continued at (April 1979): 82-87. W.H. Adgey-Edgar, "The 1925 Overprinted Fiscals Of Mongolia", Journal of Chinese Philately, Vol. 16 (April 1969): 73- 76. Chtabinsky forged overprints and other forgeries. Gunner K.-E. Hellstrom, "Forgeries of the 1926 Provisional Issue of Outer Mongolia", The Philatelist, Vol. 23 (January 1957): 87- 91, continued at Vol. 24 (February 1958): 134. Measurements of the Urga counterfeit overprint: E.M. Tolman letter to Editor, Mercury Stamp Journal, Vol. 4, Whole No. 38 (June 1956): 47.
48-54. 1931 Provisional issue. Forged overprint on genuine stamps and complete forgeries: Dr. Alfred Orth, "The 1931 Provisional Issue of Stamps for Ulan Bator", Journal of Chinese Philately, Vol. 36 (August 1989): 122-24.
59-61. Provisional issue, 1931. Forged surcharge. A. Orth, "Forgeries Of The Mongolia May 1931 Issue", Journal of Chinese Philately, Vol. 25 (December 1977): 21.
Forged and bogus cancellations: Wolfgang Hellrigl, "Forged and Bogus Postal Markings of Mongolia", Fakes Forgeries Experts journal, No. 12 (May 2009): 55-70.

Someday I am going to source those articles out. I think that you almost have to assume that unless it's got a certificate, it's faked. For example, matthijs_philatelie on eBay is selling faked multiples every week. He is also selling multiples of the 2 1958 issues for stupid money that are not particularly rare--it's obvious he has a sheet or two of them and it's a cash cow for him, but if people are willing to buy a block of stamps for $150 it's up to them. I figure at some point the price will plummet and I'll snag a copy.

Jackie
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Posted 09/13/2021   4:31 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add redwoodrandy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I received a reply from Jay Bigalke editor in chief of the Scott Catalog about a very long overdue overhaul of Mongolia. Especially the "overprint" pictures. The stamp shown Sc 43 was sold in a Kelleher Auction from the Leo Malz collection of Mongolia that realized $100,000 for the entire collection a record for Mongolia. The overprint in the catalog is quite different. Which is genuine? Changes to the catalog in 2023?











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Posted 09/13/2021   4:38 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add redwoodrandy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Back stamped. Unfortunately we do not see clearly what they are expertzing.


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Edited by redwoodrandy - 09/14/2021 08:09 am
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Posted 09/13/2021   6:45 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add paulsonja to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Scott's is free to use my copy of Scott 53 with a certificate if they want :) I think they have a responsibility to only use photos of stamps that have a certificate on the overprints. I will check my collection--I may have a copy of the above stamp.


Jackie
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Posted 09/13/2021   7:33 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add redwoodrandy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I would love to see your 53. I have a 52 that is the copy pictured in the Scott catalog and I am wondering.
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Posted 09/13/2021   7:49 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Randy - I cannot count how many fake Dr. Jem back stamps I have seen. The Hovest certs have actually been pretty good. Did Dr. Jem render opinions on Mongolia?
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Posted 09/13/2021   8:31 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add redwoodrandy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I have no experience with Dr Jem and have not seen his mark on anything except for the Mongolian stamp above.

Just had unnerving experience with 12 stamps on eBay. Agony actually. The provenance was supposedly ex-Ivanov to Cherrystone auction 10 years ago to ex-Leo Malz via the Kelleher auction I mentioned above to an eBay seller that I am familiar with. There is debate by me whether Ivanov was involved at all. The Cherrystone site says the Russia Ivanov collection and shows the catalog. Mongolia is in there but so is US and the world. I am reading it one way and the eBay folks another. Paul did not answer this question. I also asked if he had pictures of the 10/12 stamps not shown in the September 2011 auction. He did not. I went back and forth with the seller because of my dilemma of the "great" provenance vs that I did not like most of the overprints. Not one of the twelve stamps was signed. I have never seen a grouping that did not have at least one. Also the same exuberant bidder that I have run into before paying crazy, crazy prices on blocks of four mentioned above. He again ran the price up big and I would have overpaid greatly as I am a strong bidder. This almost always works for me but not with 2 or 3 newbies going so strong. The above stamp that does not match the Scott catalog also was ex-Leo Malz.
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Edited by redwoodrandy - 09/13/2021 9:48 pm
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Posted 09/13/2021   9:54 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Dr. Jem was also a dealer so there is that problem as well.
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Posted 09/14/2021   04:46 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add paulsonja to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Scott 53 with the Dr. Orth certificate is on Page 3 of this thread. I am working like crazy today and tomorrow but I am off Thursday/Friday. I will check my album and see if I have the 43 like the scan of your overprint above. Somewhere I have scans of all my early Mongolia but I had a computer crash a while back and they might not have "made it". Just another reason to have everything backed up.

Jackie
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Posted 09/14/2021   08:05 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add redwoodrandy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Here is my Sc 52 overprint. Looks exactly like the identical stamp pictured in Scott catalog. I am unable to see the overprint clear enough in your copy to compare.






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Posted 09/28/2021   5:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Randy and Paul - Have you seen the Mongolia covers in Cherrystone's upcoming auction and if so what do you think?

https://stampauctionnetwork.com/X/x102147.cfm
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Posted 09/28/2021   7:03 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add redwoodrandy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I enjoy looking at the covers but do not collect. Lot #938 is a great example of the forged "red POSTAGE overprints." Two successive Russian postmasters (J.Loschinikoff & I.M. Chtabinski did these forgeries in July-Dec 1927 especially the Ulan Bator to Harbin postmarks. They are often backdated to June 1926.
These appear to be post office issued rubber stamps with fake "red color."

Chtabinski also forged "violet" overprints with his own forged rubber stamp.
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Edited by redwoodrandy - 09/29/2021 04:28 am
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Posted 09/29/2021   07:28 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add paulsonja to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the information Randy. I would love to see these in person as the red overprints stood out as forgeries right away. I don't really know anything about covers from Mongolia except that they are expensive and not always genuine. I have been downloading images of various overprints as I find them to create a library of sorts in order to further educate myself on the forgeries. As I've said before, I also plan to track down more of the Mongolian articles on forgeries, but that may need to wait until I retire. Unfortunately the market is unsophisticated (lots of new Mongolia collectors in Asia is what is driving prices, I believe) and pricing is becoming ridiculous. I also believe that many of the "rare" stamps do exist in larger quantities (matthijs_philatelie on eBay for some of the 1950's issues he is selling blocks of 4 plus overprinted forgeries and 1960's souvenir sheets for example) in Eastern Europe where they were collected originally.

Jackie
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