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Postmark San Francisco 1868 - Forgery To The Detriment Of Collectors?

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 9 / Views: 877Next Topic  
Valued Member
Germany
65 Posts
Posted 07/19/2021   2:12 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add grisuhh62 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hello,
it concerns this cover:






In the book from Frajola (Westward Expansion) is the time to travel via steamship from SF to NY 22/23 days. The postmark SF dated July 18. - the postmark NY datad August 4. That are only 17 days!!!
I looked at the Library of Congress and found the last incoming ship from Aspinwall (Panama Route) on the 29th of July.




The next sailing ship to the UK sails 31. of July.




Why was the letter to France not on board??? The contract was closed mail to the UK (Liverpool, Queenstown or Southampton) - from Dover to Calais where it was opened. These postmarks (inclusive the NY postmark) fits for a ship leaving NY on August 4. (HAPAG "ALlemania" - arrived Southampton August 15. - postmark Calais 17.)

I found a ship leaving SF July 18.? (or 20.) - arrived Panama August 03.

So the dates from SF and NY and the Newspapers notifications do not fit!!!

is anything known about San Francisco stamps from 1868 that are in collectors hands?

I have no other explanation. Have someone here an idea??

Best wishes

Juergen
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
3019 Posts
Posted 07/19/2021   4:48 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hy-brasil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It went overland by rail and wagon since the transcontinental railroad was already in progress:
https://uspsblog.com/transcontinent...ad-and-mail/

Quote:
The Post Office Department contracted with Wells, Fargo & Co. "for the transportation of the United States mails between the western terminus of the Union Pacific railroad and the eastern terminus of the Central Pacific until the two railroads should meet."



Quote:
Before the completion of the transcontinental railroad, mail averaged between 16 and 20 days to travel from the Missouri River to California. In October 1869, the average time from San Francisco to Washington, DC, was 7 days, 7 hours, and 11 minutes. The quickest trip that month, from San Francisco to Washington, DC, took just 6 days, 15 hours.


Place of origin is usually written at the top or bottom of a letter from this time. Is it San Francisco?
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Edited by hy-brasil - 07/19/2021 4:48 pm
Valued Member
United States
224 Posts
Posted 07/20/2021   06:57 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Richard Frajola to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The book goes only to 1861. On July 1, 1861 a daily overland mail became the default way to send letter mail east. By mid 1868 there was a significant distance of the overland trip that could be accomplished by train and that gap between rail heads finally closed in May 1869. There were some interesting stoppages on the overland route caused by Indian troubles but minor disruptions only.

Your cover is genuine use by rail and stage. wells Fargo had the contract for the stage coach portion between railheads.

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Valued Member
Germany
65 Posts
Posted 07/20/2021   1:32 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add grisuhh62 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Many thanks for this information. I do not know about it.

@hy-brasil: place of origin is SF. See scan:





How do I recognize that this cover went by rail and stage? Is it only the dates of the postmarks on the letter?? And is then the time for the trip of ca. 17 days correct? Exist schedules?

In a publication I read that the Overland Mail was interrupted by the Civil War 1861 and the mail was sent again the panama route until the transcontinental railroad was finished (1869). Your information contradicts that publication (I do not remember what publication it is).

Is this website, linked by hy-brasil, the only source reference for this?

@Richard Frajola: I know Your book and I own it.But I find it annoying that it ends 1861.

Best wishes

Juergen
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
3019 Posts
Posted 07/20/2021   3:21 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hy-brasil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for the letter scan. You may or may not know that San Francisco had a large French immigrant population since the 1850s. Also, Otard Dupuy & Co. still exist as cognac makers under Martini & Rossi.


Quote:
How do I recognize that this cover went by rail and stage? Is it only the dates of the postmarks on the letter??

There are no markings/would be no markings to show transit. Since you have disproven ship mail, it is the dates that show the overland route.


Quote:
And is then the time for the trip of ca. 17 days correct?

See source quoted in my first post above. By date of mailing, there was only about a 900 mile gap not covered by rail in a approximately 3000 mile trip from San Francisco to New York.


Quote:
Exist schedules?

Possibly in print sources. But the distance between railheads was always changing - how accurate could a schedule be?


Quote:
Is this website, linked by hy-brasil, the only source reference for this?

If you don't believe what the USPS site says, not to mention Richard Frajola, would any other references be convincing? In any case, there should be print references with details.

You demand further proof, yet you cite an unnamed source from memory. Unless you have eidetic memory (yes?) I would not trust memory so absolutely.
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Edited by hy-brasil - 07/20/2021 3:25 pm
Valued Member
United States
224 Posts
Posted 07/20/2021   3:58 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Richard Frajola to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hy-B - I think we are dealing here with a language issue. Default possibly needs explaining (and I think maybe he did not read my book completely, or the book was not clear).

Juergen - Default in this case means that if a letter is not endorsed to go my a certain route, for example via Panama, the letter was send on the default route (in this case daily overland mail by the Central Route). Defaults do chang ....

In reference to some other book you may have read, you probably have confused the movement of the overland mail route from the Southern Overland route (Butterfield route) to the Central overland route that occurred in the first several months of 1861 with the start of the Central route daily mail that began July 1, 1861.. As the Southern route went through southern territory, it was necessary to move the overland route to the more secure central route.

Do you care to subsidize a new book covering the 1861 to 1869 period?
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Edited by Richard Frajola - 07/20/2021 4:09 pm
Valued Member
Germany
65 Posts
Posted 07/21/2021   06:46 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add grisuhh62 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
@hy-brasil:
Thank You for answer my questions. So it is more clearly to me.

@Frajola:
unfortunately I have to admit that I have not read Your book completely.
Thank You for Your explanations. I MUST read Your book!!!

Subsidize: I am interested in a book about this theme and period. Financial support for a book about it may depend heavily on the amount I would have to provide. And whether in a sum. If that fits, I'm probably up for it. Would have to think about it again.
(Sorry for my english - DeepL!!)
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Valued Member
United States
224 Posts
Posted 07/21/2021   08:04 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Richard Frajola to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
J,

How about an article on the period instead ...(link below). The Pony Express book that is also free on my website has a great deal of detailed information about the period between 1860 and October, 1861 as well. Click the "books" tab.

https://www.rfrajola.com/Vibrating%20Mail.pdf
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Valued Member
United States
224 Posts
Posted 07/21/2021   08:18 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Richard Frajola to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
J,

And, the census site has over 50 stampless covers from San Francisco to France, sorted by order of postmark here:

https://www.philamercury.com/browse...&ob=postmark

Note that some have sender's endorsements of "Overland" or "Panama" and some have none. The ones without a directive went the default route at that particular date.

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Valued Member
Germany
65 Posts
Posted 07/21/2021   3:38 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add grisuhh62 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Richard,
thank You for Your link and PDF. I have so much to read, I can't fight it. The last ca. 2 years I had the opportunity to buy a lot publications. And I have them all to read.

Subsidize: I AM interested. But I do not like to discuss this here in public. In my profile is my Mail-Adress. If You like, use it. Should work.

This San Francisco theme is a not my favorite. This is Seapost. US German Sea Post and all US Sea Post (up to 1941). And stampless transatlantic covers from the 19th century but mostly to Germany.
I ask the APS for an american society to US Seapost. They do not know one in the States. And it is so interesting!! (and the Canal Zone!!)

I will wait if You contact me and then we will see.

Regards

Juergen
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