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Are Prices In Catalogue Realistic

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Posted 11/28/2021   4:29 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
revcollecotr, The problem is "some", then. So how about deductions for heavy cancel as an example.
My point is to make the scoring more transparent by starting with a base score based wholly on centering.

I wonder ... when we have these periodic threads which degrade (pun intended) into grading. After everyone has spouted their stance for the thousandth time, is there ANYONE who actually changes their mind? I have strong doubts!
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Edited by John Becker - 11/28/2021 4:31 pm
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Posted 11/28/2021   5:10 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Some organizations, such as the PF will not grade damaged or faulty stamps.


Note the extensive list of "problems" in the Point Deduction section that could merit being broken out apart from the centering score.


Quote:
What Items Will Not Be Graded?

Items that have serious faults
Items that have been repaired
Fakes, such as coil stamps that have been made from imperforate Scott numbers; for example Scott #351 being made from #347
Altered items such as a line being scraped off of a #492 to have it resemble a #491 or a guide line being drawn in on a coil pair to make it appear as a line pair
Non-coil multiples



Quote:
Point Deductions from the Preliminary Grade

Deductions up to 5 points will be made depending on the number, severity and significance for any of the following problems:

Blind perforation(s)
Natural gum bend(s)
Natural gum wrinkle(s)
Natural gum skip(s)
Tiny natural inclusion(s)
Short perforation(s)
Minor perforation crease(s)
Minor toned spot(s)
Tiny thin spot(s)
Tiny tear(s)
Pale or faded color
Paper that is not fresh
Perforated stamps with margins that are smaller than one usually sees
Perforation disc indentations
In the case of used stamps a heavy run-of-the-mill cancel may lower the grade
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Posted 11/28/2021   5:35 pm  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
A simple solution would be to develop a standard grading 'score card' which the major organizations would all agree upon and use. A copy of the score card would be included with each submission return thereby not only increasing transparency but also serving an educational purpose for hobbyists to learn what to look for when procuring material. This would also serve to limit 'wannabe' grading (i.e. self grading or those who dream up their own criteria) and bring much more consistent grading on multiple submissions over time.

Doing a standard score card approach like this would go a very long way, in my opinion, in make grading more acceptable to the hobby.

We (this community) have enough expertise to develop a draft score card ourselves and then present it to the organizations for consideration, saving them from having to spend time and money on the development. We could also meditate any modifications that might be desired by the various parties. A dream? Probably. Because there are forces which do not want transparency or for the playing field to be level.
Don
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Posted 11/28/2021   5:51 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add bookbndrbob to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
My understanding is that the obsession with centering is not universal, but mostly a USA view.

Damage, such as tears, thins and the like are more universally accepted as faults...except where they are expected for a particular issue.
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Posted 11/28/2021   6:07 pm  Show Profile Check GeoffHa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GeoffHa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I think the interest in having well-centred stamps is universal, but no-one else - or not in Europe, at least - tries to put a percentage or a list of letters to it. "Well-centred", "four clear margins" etc suffice. An adjective like "fine" simply refers to condition, not centring. I hope it stays that way.
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Posted 11/28/2021   6:08 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Don - What you describe would be a worthy endeavor and I would love to be a part of it in any way. I have to believe that even Siegel might back such a system given the verbal head scratching that comes through in some of their lot descriptions as to why a stamp graded a certain way or why a negative cert was issued to an extension item. If someone at Scott Trepel's level knew the nuts and bolts behind some of the expertizing bodies opinions I doubt that these expressions of grading frustration would be published. That being said it is likely that nobody involved in the sale of philatelic material wants to rock the boat if the bodies wish for their means & methods to remain proprietary. But really, what's to lose if a bunch of forum members want to try for some positive collector-centric change to how things are done. At the least it will be, as you stated, a great learning tool for many and a refresher course for others.

At worst it will be received like the SAN provenance/historical sales pricing feature was by some in the business. Nothing ventured.......

And then there is the thought that the "score cards" already exist. Does anyone know what records are created and kept?
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Posted 11/28/2021   6:11 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
My understanding is that the obsession with centering is not universal, but mostly a USA view.


It may have been in the past but I can attest that centering is now very important to non-US collectors of Russian material.
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Posted 11/28/2021   9:07 pm  Show Profile Check eyeonwall's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add eyeonwall to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Collectors in different countries have different standards/different tastes. In Germany they are more obsessed with pristine gum.

I agree with JB that a fault free 90 is not the same thing as a 95 centered stamp knocked down to 90 for some problem and that the reason for the downgrade should be listed.

About a score card breaking down different things that go into the total - they do exactly that for exhibits don't they?
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Posted 11/29/2021   07:02 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add angore to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Maybe the grading should be more like diamonds...color, cut, clarity, etc. so no singular score.
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Al
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Posted 11/29/2021   2:44 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Well, I am going to start working on an outline and putting together some draft documents. If you want to join in you know where to find me.
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Posted 11/29/2021   8:37 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add widglo46 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I agree with angore - why not design a certificate along the same lines as a GIA diamond certificate? List the objective findings like Scott number, issue, denomination, color, paper type. Then list size and margin widths, and if the stamp design is asymmetric, so note. In addition to actual margin widths and size measurements, one could assign a numeric scale for centering.

For used stamps, add a brief cancellation description. Thereafter address the subjective findings including impression, color intensity, perforation condition, paper condition, and gum condition. Each of these would have just 4 or 5 simple choices such as "poor", "fair", "good", "excellent", although the adjectives need not be the same for each category. Lastly, a simple schematic of the stamp would allow for the documentation of faults.

It sounds like a lot, but aren't all of these things what the expertizers are supposed to be considering already?
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Posted 11/29/2021   10:09 pm  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
There are many, many examples of various judging worksheets online for other things. For example


I think the key is to develop something that lends itself easy modification. This would only work if each of the primary player organizations felt that they had 'say' and input. Getting 'buy in' takes a lot of skill and is the largest and most important task.

Towards that end, there needs to be a ROI presentation which includes why this will improve the grading aspect of the hobby, how it will help each organization (time/cost savings and/or increase sales). This is more important for getting 'buy in' than a worksheet.

The simplest way to think about it is to put yourself in the position of one of the grading organizations and ask, 'what is in this for us?'.
Don
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Posted 11/30/2021   12:14 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I intend to work on this through some contacts.
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