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Crete And A Possible/Probable Forgery

 
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Canada
818 Posts
Posted 09/20/2021   1:56 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add backroads to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
As usual when I find a footnote in Scott that Forgeries exist, if I run across an expensive item in an old collection, I immediately presume it is a forgery. This time it is Crete #97 which is the left hand stamp in the photo. The other, #98, is a common stamp with the same overprint. I have spent a little time comparing these two overprints and the most obvious thing that leaps out is that the one I assume is genuine is a much finer and lighter impression. That could explain the thicker lines in the characters of the presumed forgery though the last character in the upper line is also a little out of alignment as well as the right hand numeral 5 being a bit different in appearance.
Am I making the correct call here? Any pointers in general to looking for forgeries where you know they exist, especially when you do not have anything genuine to compare?

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France, Metropolitan
3189 Posts
Posted 09/20/2021   3:01 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
In the last N.(lower word) The right vertical stoke is slightly bended outwards at the top.This is found on genuine stamps.
the N's are very slightly slanting to the right,also as in the genuine.
Otherwise inking can vary with these.The middle stroke of the E in ELLAZ is a bit thick in inking,so nothing unusual there imo.
The 2nd O is a bit askew as in the genuine.
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Pillar Of The Community
Canada
818 Posts
Posted 09/20/2021   4:07 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add backroads to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
perf12 So if I am reading you correctly, what I am seeing as problematic is within the variations found in genuine stamps. And there are some indications that letter characteristics also point to this being a genuine rather than a forged stamp.

That was a very interesting and a helpful analysis. Thank you for your opinions. It is very, very unusual when a random find in an old album turns out to be a genuine rather than a forged copy. I realize that expertization would be needed, though, if I ever intended to claim it as such. Shall have to make a note in my album for this one.
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United States
2501 Posts
Posted 09/20/2021   9:48 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hy-brasil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
As usual when I find a footnote in Scott that Forgeries exist, if I run across an expensive item in an old collection, I immediately presume it is a forgery.

While you're likely not going to find a real British Guiana #13, there are ignored items of some value found in collections often enough. They might not be sound. In my opinion, assuming forgeries are about as bad as assuming a forgery of an expensive stamp is genuine because it's in an old collection. You just don't know at this point.

Plus, you did ask about this one and didn't just leave it in the reject pile.


Quote:
Any pointers in general to looking for forgeries where you know they exist, especially when you do not have anything genuine to compare?

Keep in mind that Scott notes forgeries that can be very misleading to blatantly crude. They don't mention every occurrence when forgeries exist, either. The Michel worldwide catalogs can give you many more details to help identify forgeries. But no general catalog gives complete information if that's even possible.

Nothing below works 100% in every case. Still:
  • you may need to up your net search game since there may be a articles about the issue in question that would also deal with forgeries. There are many forgery ID sites/pages, some of which are embedded in websites about specific countries or areas.
  • measure the perf gauge and check for a watermark if present. There are specific classic stamps missing a watermark normally and Scott rounds perf measurements, but the wrong perfs and no watermark certainly is a strong case for having a forgery in front of you.
  • check the archives and/or ask here on SCF. Captain Obvious is being obvious.
  • know the difference between engraving/recess, typography and lithography. Lithography was/is the cheapest and more accessible printing method and was a common way to forge overprints and surcharges that were printed using the other methods. Otherwise, handstamps are going to be problematic.
  • for overprints and surcharges, compare type faces with as many stamps you can find online. For expensive items, certified stamps found on auction sites or high-end sales sites can help a lot. Take it with a grain of salt when some eBay seller says "signed", which could be just an owner's mark. Forgers often use a type face that's close but not exactly the same as the original. You need to carefully look at how each letter is formed.






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1025 Posts
Posted 09/20/2021   11:22 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add DrewM to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Impressions, the pressure of printing the stamp, the inking, heavy or light, and other factors make one "identical" stamp look somewhat different from another. I think that's what you've got here. I have a lot of identical stamps that are not identical.

Forgeries, on the other hand, are nearly always different. If you look back and forth between a stamp you know is legitimate and another stamp, from one letter and numeral and line to another, from one border ornament to another, you're very likely to see at least a few very notable differences if one stamp has been faked. Look at the shading under the eye, the hair curls, the outline of the lips, the lettering, the border details, the background lines or dots. It's not the heaviness of the ink or the other factors that matter typically, but the design of the stamp. Forgery is very, very hard to do well. Most fakes put next to legitimate stamps are pretty obviously fakes.
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Edited by DrewM - 09/20/2021 11:24 pm
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Australia
33071 Posts
Posted 09/21/2021   03:38 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Your right hand stamp is a changeling in my opinion,
the pigment is suffering oxidisation, or light damage.
I do not see any forgery.

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Canada
818 Posts
Posted 09/21/2021   12:16 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add backroads to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for the opinions and suggestions. And to rod222, I have to admit that the possibility of a colour changeling had never crossed my mind. I know that it is relatively common in the red / orange / yellow colour range though. I did compare that stamp to my other copies of the listed orange stamp and, in my very limited sample, I seem to have another that looks very similar to the first overprint and one that is more brilliantly orange.




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United Kingdom
3088 Posts
Posted 09/21/2021   4:30 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add nigelc to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Nice analysis by perf12.

The SG 48 rose looks ok to me.

The orange stamp colour of SG 49 can change over time, I guess through oxidation or perhaps more likely sulphurisation.

I'm looking at a page of SG 49 just now which I'll try to scan later.
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Nigel
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United Kingdom
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Posted 09/21/2021   4:40 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add nigelc to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Here are a few of my mint/unused SG 49 showing some variation in colour:
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Nigel
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Australia
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Posted 09/21/2021   7:22 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
perhaps more likely sulphurisation.


Thanks for the correction Nigel.
(You seem to have 3 stamps suffering sulphurisation)


Author: michael78651

"Oxidation" is an incorrect term. Oxidation is the absorption of oxygen by certain metals like iron. There is no metal in the orange inks. The correct term is "sulphurisation".

As for cleaning stamps, I find that using ammonia works much faster, and is much better at achieving the desired results than using dish detergent. Of course everyone has their favorite methods, but give a stamp an ammonia bath and see the results. Always try it first with a cheap, disposable stamp.

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Edited by rod222 - 09/21/2021 7:26 pm
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United States
2501 Posts
Posted 09/22/2021   01:22 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hy-brasil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
nigelc's group also shows different impressions of the overprint.

Also, all shown here show the same left "5" different from the right, including the #97. That might be a detection feature.
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