Stamp Community Family of Web Sites
Thousands of stamps, consistently graded, competitively priced and hundreds of in-depth blog posts to read
Stamp Community Forum
 
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some stamps?
Our stamp forum is completely free! Register Now!

Ondessonk From Canada?

Next Page    
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 16 / Views: 328Next Topic
Page: of 2
Valued Member
155 Posts
Posted 10/15/2021   11:05 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add CindyCan2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Here's an interesting stamp which I suspect might be from Canada.

Ondessonk was the Mohawk name given to Father Isaac Jogues, a French Jesuit priest who traveled and worked among the Iroquois, Huron, and other indigenous populations in North America from 1636 to 1646, when he was martyred at the hands of the Iroquois.

The stamp is printed in plum on buff paper, and features Jogues, and two other martyrs, René Goupil and Jean de Lalande.

The stamps were issued as a pane of 10 (5 x 2) stamps, likely in a booklet with multiple panes.

What has stumped me is that the stamp has a denomination of 10 lr. But "lr" doesn't make any sense for Canada. Does anyone have a clue about "lr", which might be a clue to its origin?



Send note to Staff

Pillar Of The Community
Canada
1234 Posts
Posted 10/15/2021   11:26 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add No1philatelist to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I wonder? Is that the engravers/artists name on the right side? - E.or S. Gouchet- possibly from France. As well is it possible the currency indicated is Fr for francs.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by No1philatelist - 10/15/2021 11:28 pm
Bedrock Of The Community
Learn More...
Australia
33621 Posts
Posted 10/16/2021   01:05 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Agreed Ron,
Franc fr in lower case
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
155 Posts
Posted 10/16/2021   01:41 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add CindyCan2 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I considered francs, but 10 francs for a charity seal seemed a bit excessive, given the stamp was probably issued in the 1930s or 1940s. Here are close-ups from some of the other stamps to rule out just a printing artefact. Still looks like "lr".





And here's a closeup of the artist's signature. Looks like F. Boucrot, possibly Francis Boucrot a Parisian artist.

Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Bedrock Of The Community
Learn More...
Australia
33621 Posts
Posted 10/16/2021   07:31 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
but 10 francs for a charity seal seemed a bit excessive


That was my only concern, also.
LR all I could imagine was Lira, but that's way off.

Origin is a real puzzle also, are they gummed?
Looks to me circa 1950ish

If you est 1930's, they were canonised by the Pope in 1930
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by rod222 - 10/16/2021 07:57 am
Valued Member
155 Posts
Posted 10/16/2021   08:34 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add CindyCan2 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I have three panes and they are not gummed. But close inspection of the printing shows that the ink has run in most, so I suspect they have been soaked.

The date could be in the 1950s. A bit more searching confirmed the artist is Francis Boucrot, who was an illustrator and marionnettist who published books in the late 1950s.



Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by CindyCan2 - 10/16/2021 08:35 am
Pillar Of The Community
France
1990 Posts
Posted 10/16/2021   08:52 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add vayolene to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry,but obviously not the same Boucrot.
Lire could refer to Vatican City,but lr is not an usual abbreviation for lire (L or £)
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
United States
6536 Posts
Posted 10/16/2021   5:03 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add bookbndrbob to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
My guess is that the tiny, ineffective bend at the top of the first letter in the value is meant to indicate "f".
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Bedrock Of The Community
Learn More...
Australia
33621 Posts
Posted 10/16/2021   5:12 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Sorry,but obviously not the same Boucrot.

Hi Vayolene,
what reasons do you offer for the above?
Could he have changed signatures over time perhaps?

Good research Ron,
all my efforts turned up zero.
If it be the same, the artist's style has matured over time?

3 panes, care to offer from whence they came? Curious.
Amazed these have not popped up before on the www.


Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
1125 Posts
Posted 10/16/2021   5:27 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Three of eight North American martyrs. There is a good chance this is North-American and not European.

Maybe related to Camp Ondessonk.

I agree with Vayolene the signatures are from different persons. Too much differences in individual letters. Also the way letters are connected, markedly, differs.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by NSK - 10/16/2021 5:50 pm
Bedrock Of The Community
Learn More...
Australia
33621 Posts
Posted 10/16/2021   5:54 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I think the boucrot script has basic similarities
the curve of the lower case "b" etc amongst others.

Cannot be related to camp Ondessonk, that only began in 1959
(unless the labels were printed then, onwards)

Also, 1 is a script design to go on a printing plate or screen,
the other, a signature.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by rod222 - 10/16/2021 5:59 pm
Valued Member
155 Posts
Posted 10/16/2021   6:50 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add CindyCan2 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Panes: I found the panes on eBay from a seller from France. Described as "Christian Iconograhy" but no other clues about origin that could not be gleaned from the stamps.

Artist: Opinion seems to be that the signatures on the stamp and on the poster from 1958 may be from different artists. So there would have to be 2 artists named F. Boucrot, both illustrators, in the mid 20th century, who sign their names without using capital letters. We don't know the date on the stamp, so it is possible, as Rod has suggested, that the artist's signature has evolved. More research needed...

Timing: The martyrs were canonized in 1930, but in 1955 there were some celebrations of the 25th anniversary of the canonization. This might be a date for the production of the stamp. Or a fundraising campaign to help finance the celebrations.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
1125 Posts
Posted 10/17/2021   02:29 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Similarities are not very telling in handwriting. Most of us learn to write in primary school. If both artists were schooled in even a French influence, they, likely, will have been taught the same style. That b is how I learned to write in school. I no longer write this way. The whole "boucro" part is pretty standard. The first and last letters are in completely different universes. In other letters, there also are differences. The r is quite pronounced.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
155 Posts
Posted 10/17/2021   1:17 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add CindyCan2 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
More research needed...


A little more research on the presumed artist, Francis Boucrot.

1. Boucrot is a very rare family name. In terms of Google hits:
"Boucrot": 147,000 hits, many are for "Marc Boucrot", a contemporary film editor, or "Emanuelle Boucrot", an Associate Professor of Molecular Cell Biology.
"Boucrot, F.": 148 hits, most are about the artist active in the 1950s and 1960s, who illustrated children's books, and did marionette theatre.
"Boucrot, Francis": 582 hits, most are about the artist active in the 1950s and 1960s, who illustrated children's books, and did marionette theatre.
"Boucrot, Francois": 81 hits, none seem to be an artist, some are genealogy hits from people in the 1850s.

So there only seems to be one artist named Francis Boucrot from Google searches.

2. Francis Boucrot.
Born on October 16, 1920 in Nevers, Nièvre, Bourgogne-Franche-Comté (France)
Died on August 18, 1992 in Paris 12e Arrondissement, Paris, Île-de-France (France)
He was active in illustrating children's books, including a book on Shadow Puppetry "Les Theatres d'Ombres", and did posters for theatre and film productions.

3. Signatures (most recent first, sorry for the poor image quality).
a. From poster "Youm et les longues moustaches"(1961)
b. From book cover "Fabuleux Petrole"(1960)
c. From poster "200 livres pour nos enfants"(1958)
d. From book cover "Air Avions Fusees" (1958)
e. From book jacket of "Les Theatres d'ombres"(1956)
f. compare to signature on the stamp (1955?)





The signature from the 1956 book is perhaps the closest to the one on the stamp. Most telling is the small caps "f" for the artist's first name, with rounded curves.

Conclusion: Based on the rarity of the last name "Boucrot", the inability to identify a second artist by the name "F. Boucrot", the time period (mid 1950s) suggested for the production of the stamp (25th anniversary of the canonization of the 3 martyrs) and when this artist was most active, and the overall resemblance of the signature on the stamp to the artist Francis Boucrot's signatures on works attributed to him from this period (even though the signature seems to have evolved a bit over a short time period), the most parsimonious conclusion is that Francis Boucrot is the artist behind the Ondessonk stamp.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
1125 Posts
Posted 10/17/2021   2:00 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Good research
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Bedrock Of The Community
Learn More...
Australia
33621 Posts
Posted 10/17/2021   2:39 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Brilliant work, Ron.
I knew you must have had extraordinary research skills,
on using your Cinderella Catalogue.
The information on the most obscure, is apparent.

The above is a testimony of your route to ID.

Good luck with the Ondessonk, this really looks a toughie, and quite scarce, if not, unique.

In broadcast to my poor Television habits perhaps,
I was reminded here, when comparing signatures, of the TV show "Pawnstars"
The staff often call in experts, when estimating signatures, often the shape etc differs, but always, there are loops, curls etc, that remain
and give rise to recognition of the genuine.

In your examples the "b" in boucrot, stands out,
and the "r" in Francois (C & D) is rather unique, a very strange way
for a cursive "r"


Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Page: of 2 Previous TopicReplies: 16 / Views: 328Next Topic  
Next Page
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.


Go to Top of Page
Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Stamp Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2021 Stamp Community Family - All rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Stamp Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Privacy Policy / Terms of Use    Advertise Here
Stamp Community Forum © 2007 - 2021 Stamp Community Forums
It took 0.23 seconds to lick this stamp. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05