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Liechtenstein Forerunners (Vorlaufers): What Catalogues Show/Value Them?

 
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Posted 10/16/2021   06:07 am  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add bmbmbm to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hi,

I was looking for catalogues that cover forerunner stamps of Liechtenstein (other countries' stamps with Liechtenstein cancels). I was wanting to know which catalogues would cover this, and how early of edition would cover it, as I'll probably try to get an older version.

I have access to scans of SBK (Schweizer Breifmarken Katalog) 2003 (includes Switzerland, Liechtenstein, and United Nations-Geneva), and it lists Liechtenstein forerunners on Swiss stamps, but none on Austrian stamps.


https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=90726
seems to indicate that a Liechtensteiner Briefmarkenkatalog (1990) would list them and a Michel 2016/2017 Specialised Liechtenstein catalogue seems to list them as well.

I wondered if a older Michel Schweiz/Liechtenstein Spezial catalog (1990s) might cover it?

Would it be better to get an Austrian specialized catalogue like an Osterreich Netto Katalog? Would that show forerunners on Austrian stamps for Liechtenstein as well as many of the other regions that were part of Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Thanks!
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Posted 10/16/2021   07:08 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add gmot to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Michel has the Liechtenstein Specialized 2019/2020 for sale on their site, priced at 43 Euros, it mentions that it covers forerunners.
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Posted 10/16/2021   08:21 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add classic_paper to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I don't recall my ANK showing them, but I can confirm tomorrow night. Zumstein may, as well.
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Posted 10/18/2021   02:28 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add bmbmbm to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the input!

I definitely would like to know what kind of cancel coverage (if any) that ANK and Zumstein have, before I think about purchasing one.

For Michel, does anyone know if the Liechtenstein forerunner coverage has changed much since 1997 or even 2008 (when Switzerland and Liechtenstein were still lumped into one specialized catalog)? I am considering buying one of them, but am wondering if the coverage changes much between those versions, or even up to the Liechtenstein 2019/2020 version? For example, are the different cancels differentiated on a stamp (like VADUZ vs. TRIESEN)? Are there any other differences? SBK does not differentiate basted on different postmarks.

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Posted 10/18/2021   09:02 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add classic_paper to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Took a look through my 20/21 ANK Breifmarken Österreich Spezialkatalog, no mention of anything Liechtenstein-related. There's are a few listings for cancellations on Lombardy-Venetia issues, but that's about it.

The description for their Briefmarken Vierländerkatalog does contain this, however:


Quote:
Liechtenstein umfasst neben den allgemeinen Ausgaben für Liechtenstein auch die Ausgaben der österreichischen und der Schweizer Postverwaltung, die Automatenmarken, Botenpost, Vaduz-Sevelen Botenpost, Dienstmarken, Franko-zettel, Fürstlich Liechtensteinische Post und die Portomarken. Weiters angeführt werden die personalisierten Briefmarken der Liechtensteinischen Post „dieMarke.li", sowie die Kollektionsbogen.


I'm not convinced "Franko-zettel" covers what your looking for, but it's something. Sorry I don't have a Zumstein or Michel to check them, but this might help you: https://shop.philatelie.li/literatu...achliteratur The site also sells forerunners.
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Posted 10/18/2021   2:02 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add gmot to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I don't have the Michel Liechtenstein, but here's the table of contents. So over 50 pages dedicated to forerunners (vorlaufer), have to imagine it goes into considerable detail.

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Posted 10/18/2021   2:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add bmbmbm to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
OK, thanks for looking classic_paper! Can I see what the Lombardy-Venetia cancels coverage looks like in ANK, if you wouldn't mind posting a picture?

Yeah, I don't think "Franko-zettel" is what I'm looking for either, according to this link: https://www.catawiki.com/en/l/41031...zettel-sbk-6
The forerunners on the site look interesting though!

It sounds like getting a Michel may be the best bet, though I don't know if the forerunner coverage has changed much from a new catalogue versus an older one. What year is that table of contents from gmot?
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Edited by bmbmbm - 10/18/2021 2:17 pm
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Posted 10/18/2021   2:57 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add classic_paper to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Here's a sample of how ANK covers them, for what it's worth.





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Posted 10/18/2021   3:25 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add gmot to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
This is from the 2019/2020 (latest one). I don't have any older ones, so not sure how much has changed between editions.
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Posted 10/18/2021   5:35 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add bmbmbm to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hmm...interesting! Thanks for that!

I just purchased a Michel Liechtenstein specialized 2018/2019 for a good price. Thanks for helping me make a decision!

Another field I'm interested in is German stamps used in Austria 1938-45. Does ANK cover that as well, specifically in the period 1940-45? If so, would you mind posting a sample of how they cover that section? I've been interested in these periods for awhile now, but never was sure which catalogue(s) I might want to get. I really appreciate the information!
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Posted 10/18/2021   6:30 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add classic_paper to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The only difference between ANK and Michel is that the former (naturally) titles that section Ostmark, while the latter uses Drittes Reich or Grossdeutschland or something similar. I'll post the first page of the era from each catalog in the morning.
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Edited by classic_paper - 10/18/2021 6:30 pm
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Posted 10/19/2021   08:52 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add classic_paper to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Here are the first two pages from ANK (Austria) then Michel (Germany) for 1938.








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Posted 11/05/2021   04:20 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add bmbmbm to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks classic_paper for all your help! You convinced me to get an ANK Austria specialized catalogue.

The only problem is that now I regret buying the 2009/2010 version I found, as it must be too old...

Granted, it is nice! I had no idea about all the plate flaws on Austrian stamps from the 40s and 50s, but I am disappointed in the coverage of Ostmark and Lombardy-Venetia, as I was hoping it would look like your's. Oh, well! Evidently they must have revamped it after my 2009/2010 catalog came out.

Ostmark: My catalog sadly does not have the first page you posted (page 88) at all. They just start the section with how your page 89 looks.

Lombardy-Venetia: They include some information similar to your scans, but not as much. Also, the layout of the info they do include is not as nice or easy to understand. In my catalog, they separate the Austria and Lombardy-Venetia listings into entirely different sections, while your catalogue seems to combine the listings together, somewhat. Most disappointedly, my catalogue doesn't appear to value Austrian stamps used in Lombardy-Venetia, or Lombardy-Venetia stamps used in Austria.

classic_paper, if you wouldn't mind, and have a chance, could I see how your ANK Austria Specialized covers the 1863 issues/cancellations of Austria/Lombardy Venetia (probably pages 35 and 36 according to your scans)? That should cover that last bit of information I'm missing, that I've been unable to get ahold of so far!


Also, how would you translate the text at the top of the your scanned page 88 (Ostmark)?

Through my rudimentary Google Translate method, I get:
From top left:

On Saturday, March 12th, 1938, German troops crossed the border with Austria and occupied the whole country without any resistance. On March 13, 1938, the Anschluss was standardized and the newly created Greater Germany was subsequently accepted by the Austrian population on April 10, by means of a vote.

Unless they were previously declared invalid (the period of validity is specified for the individual stamps), the Austrian stamps kept their postage validity until October 31, 1938 at the latest.

On April 4, 1938, postage stamps of the German Empire became valid in the Ostmark and mixed postage with Austrian stamps became possible.
Exchange rate: 1 RM = 1.50 OS

The following stamps were also valid in the Ostmark:
Prices apply to Ostmark cancellations, or on letters alone or in mixed postage with stamps from the German Empire.

Does this mean that listings below this are for Austrian stamps that were still valid to use, and that were used in Austria between April 4,1938 and October 31, 1938? Am I interpreting this correctly? Is that what it means by Ostmark cancellations?
-------------------------------------------------------
From the top right:
The following stamps of the German Empire were also valid in the Ostmark:
Austrian postage stamps were not allowed to be used in the German Reich.

I take this to mean that they are saying the listings below are for German stamps (ones issued before 1938?) that are have Austria cancellations. Is this correct? If so, do you know if ANK numbers are the same as Michel numbers?

Thank you again for all your help!
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Posted 11/05/2021   3:31 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add classic_paper to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Google Translate did a pretty decent job, honestly.

Quote:
Does this mean that listings below this are for Austrian stamps that were still valid to use, and that were used in Austria between April 4,1938 and October 31, 1938?

Yes. The list is for Austrian stamps (ANK numbered) issued during the First Republic that could still be used post-Anschluss until no later than Oct 31, 1938.

Quote:
Am I interpreting this correctly? Is that what it means by Ostmark cancellations?

Quoted values are for these stamps or covers with Ostmark cancellations, as opposed to First Republic cancellations.

Quote:
I take this to mean that they are saying the listings below are for German stamps (ones issued before 1938?) that are have Austria cancellations. Is this correct? If so, do you know if ANK numbers are the same as Michel numbers?

Yes, correct. German stamps were valid in Ostmark, but not vice-versa. ANK and Michel run almost parallel (generally identical).

Here are the 1863 issues:



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Posted 11/05/2021   4:21 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add bmbmbm to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks classic_paper!

You mentioned "German stamps were valid in Ostmark, but not vice-versa."

I'm curious now, even though Austrian stamps were not valid in Germany, did they get ever get used in Germany? Can one find them, (even though they're probably rare)? Just wondering, as there are many cases throughout the world of stamps not being used in their government-approved way. I wondered if it happened in this case too.
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Edited by bmbmbm - 11/05/2021 4:22 pm
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