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Need Help With A 2 Cent Brown Bank Note Stamp Dated 1883

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New Member

United Kingdom
4 Posts
Posted 11/26/2021   10:54 am  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add Kas7777 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I have an 1883 2 cent brown bank note stamp. I believe these stamps were produced with no grills or watermarks. However, my stamp looks like it has a 'Z' grill and an inverted watermark with a crown over A and also a sideways watermark with a crown over A. Can anyone help with this. Thanks.


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United States
1052 Posts
Posted 11/26/2021   11:48 am  Show Profile Check ray.mac's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add ray.mac to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry, I don't see a grill on this stamp, or a watermark.
Could you be confusing the weave of the soft porous paper with a grill?

Ray
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United Kingdom
4 Posts
Posted 11/26/2021   11:54 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Kas7777 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the reply Ray. Definitely not the paper. I will try to upload better photos for you.
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Posted 11/26/2021   12:06 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I see no reason to believe this is anything other than a standard Scott 210.

A U.S. stamp would certainly not have a crown over A watermark.
Nor a grill.

That said, rather than photographs, high-resolution scans of the front and the back will be more useful.
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Valued Member
United States
483 Posts
Posted 11/26/2021   12:53 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rdavid to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
No kings here. No crown watermarks.
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Posted 12/06/2021   2:50 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essayk to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Holding the stamp to the light, with or without watermark fluid on it, makes it all but impossible to see anything but the bars of the cancellation. However, the choice of stamp in this case is interesting inasmuch as watermarked varieties do exist, and a couple of them do show a crown, though that fact has not yet been published and is little known. However, none of the watermarked stamps were regularly issued and so far none is known used. Given the cancellation, I think we can safely discount watermarking in this case.
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Posted 12/06/2021   3:41 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
However, the choice of stamp in this case is interesting inasmuch as watermarked varieties do exist, and a couple of them do show a crown, though that fact has not yet been published and is little known.


Essayk,
That is a rather fantastic claim. How do you "know" it ... if it has not been published - or do you own the copy or can point to a certificate record or auction record? I'm not trying to say "put up or shut up", but yeah I kinda am.
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United States
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Posted 12/06/2021   5:18 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add dudley to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
First time in 60+ years as a US philatelist that I have heard of a crown (or any) watermark connected with this stamp.
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United States
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Posted 12/07/2021   6:23 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essayk to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
John B.

Yes I do own examples of exactly the items to which I referred, and eventually they will be published.

Dudley:
Watermarking in conjunction with the two cent of 1883 was discussed with illustrations in volume one (pp.52-54) of Edward ("Ned") Willard's two volume study of this stamp back in 1970. However, he did not have a very clear view of all the marks he was studying, so some updating is in order now that more material has been discovered.

Four types of mark have been known to collectors since Willard, and I have a fifth type which is distinct from the others but not as easy to understand as I might wish.
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Edited by essayk - 12/07/2021 6:29 pm
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Posted 12/07/2021   6:48 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
This block was sold by Harmer (Sale 3005, Lot 1148) in 2014 and has 1992 PF and 2014 PSE certificates. It is printed on experimental honeycomb watermarked paper.



And there is this from Siegel:

https://siegelauctions.com/lot_grd....emailflag=on

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Edited by rogdcam - 12/07/2021 6:50 pm
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United States
1764 Posts
Posted 12/07/2021   8:28 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essayk to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for posting the Siegel link. Jim Lee told me about that sheet a few years ago, but we have not been able to track it down in the last five years. He knows/knew the man who owned it for a while, but lost touch. I tried to contact him but they were not sure he still had it (and uncertain that he ever did). Poof! up in smoke for me. Had not see the sheet until now. As for the Bavarian nature of the WMK, I need to be convinced of that. But the plate number is in the right series for at least one of the wmk types (actually, a couple).
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Posted 12/07/2021   9:25 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I am amazed the Wmk was not identified in the Auction listing
Siegel would have had the ideal opportunity to describe the Wmk.

On page 53 of his Volume I, Willard illustrates a block of the 2˘ red brown on laid paper with a watermark '& Co.' remarking the ampersand is in an old fashioned style. This is a Willcox & Co. watermark. On this page he also illustrates a block of four example from plate 557 with heavy horizontal laid markings and a single vertical line (batonné), which supports the example found as lot 2002 in the 1890s DeCoppet sale that Luff noted. The shade and plate number date it to late 1886 or early 1887. He also shows a laid example with the batonné line but it is vertically laid and has a watermark, which he describes as an eagle in a half circle. I have not identified the mill that used this watermark. Other watermark experimental essays found on this stamp are the honeycomb thick paper and a wavy line watermark similar to the 1875 issue of Bavaria.

http://www.nystamp.org/postal-histo...ic-is-paper/
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Edited by rod222 - 12/07/2021 9:32 pm
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Posted 12/07/2021   9:34 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

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Posted 12/08/2021   12:59 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essayk to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Cal Hahn was a nice man, to me, and a renowned philatelic researcher, but he did not hesitate to represent his speculations as bonafide researched truth. His comments as you quote them in the paragraph above are not as well established as you might think, though they are not entirely wrong by any means. They will be sorted out in time. They represent a force of philatelic opinion to be reckoned with.
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Posted 12/08/2021   3:04 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add dudley to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks to all for this--it's never too late to learn something new.
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United Kingdom
4 Posts
Posted 12/15/2021   2:23 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Kas7777 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi, an update on the stamp. I've uploaded a few more pictures which hopefully you will see the honeycomb grill on. To me the watermark looks like small crowns but I'm no expert so would like your opinions. Thanks.



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