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Is This Scott 810 On A Domestic Air Mail Cover?

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 14 / Views: 434Next Topic  
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Posted 11/30/2021   12:59 pm  Show Profile Check 3193zd's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add 3193zd to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Just because the sender typed "via air mail", does that mean it will go airmail?
was there airmail service between these cities? should there be any other markings showing it went airmail?


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Michael Darabaris

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Posted 11/30/2021   1:21 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Cancel was clearly played with saying 1918, since the stamp was not issued until 1938.
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Posted 11/30/2021   3:01 pm  Show Profile Check 3193zd's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 3193zd to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I didn't even notice that! But that has nothing to do with my questions.
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Michael Darabaris
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Posted 11/30/2021   3:18 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Cancel was clearly played with

An alternate opinion: It is from 1948. The "48" of the year is supplied by a 2-digit year-date slug inserted into the dial next to the "19" of this International "Flier" canceling machine. The slug is set at a slight angle such that the left part of the "4" does not print fully. No shenanigans, no funny business at all.

Backstamps: Not done in this era except on registered or special delivery mail. Your cover is typical of its time.

Did it fly? I agree, there is no proof whether it flew or went by rail. It would have been dispatched from Detroit via the fastest method for that time of day. Either method, it would have been delivered the next day in Cleveland.
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Posted 11/30/2021   4:36 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add bookbndrbob to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, there is a stroke 2/3 of the way down on what might be seen as a "1", indicating that it really an incomplete "4".
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Edited by bookbndrbob - 11/30/2021 4:36 pm
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Posted 12/01/2021   08:58 am  Show Profile Check 3193zd's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 3193zd to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
so another thought is if sent domestic letter rate in 1948 cost was 3 cents domestic air was 5 cents. SO it paid the proper rate for air.
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Michael Darabaris
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Posted 12/01/2021   10:39 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, it clearly has 5 cents which pays the airmail rate, but as I noted above, clerks used their discretion (knowing the rail and airmail schedules for their city) to route mail by the fastest and most efficient way possible for that particular time of day. Even by researching the rail and flight times in 1948, it is impossible to be 100% sure whether you cover actually flew, being such a short distance on a highly-traveled rail corridor. One can occasionally find auxiliary markings stamped onto airmail-rated covers which read "Dispatched by rail to save time" or "Dispatched by train ..." when an airmail letter just missed a flight and would have to wait too long for the next one, etc.

Add: Here is an "airmail" cover from 1936, which did get some markings. Chicago to Dixon, IL, about 100 miles to the west. Franked with airmail postage - the intent of the sender that it go fast, canceled at a Chicago station at 2pm, airmail cancel on reverse at 3pm (when the clerks would have diverted it out of the airmail section and over to the rail folks where it found its way to the Chicago & Omaha RPO. Hypothetical, had this cover started in New York City, it would have flown from NY to Chicago, then by rail from Chicago to Dixon.

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Edited by John Becker - 12/01/2021 11:01 am
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Posted 12/01/2021   12:20 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
1948

Detroit to Cleveland air service had been in place 22 years in 1948.

Airmail postage paid and item so endorsed for airmail.

Should assume proper handling, and by air, unless proof otherwise. The is no such proof here to indicate anything but air.
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Posted 12/01/2021   12:42 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
PPG,
Yes, there is a high probability this cover flew, but I wouldn't bet a week's salary on it. I have no doubt there was direct airmail service between Detroit and Cleveland. BUT, what were the flight frequency/times in 1948? Was this after the last flight of the day? I am not trying to be argumentative, but to point out that clerks of that era were very knowledgeable of the routes/schedules, and how to get mail to the destination as fast as possible, etc. The lack of a marking is not proof.
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Posted 12/01/2021   1:30 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The lack of a marking is not proof.



By the same measure, there is no proof the letter actually travel in the mail stream any where nor that the post office actually delivered the item as address. Is there photos or the transit, ring door bell recordings when the item was placed into a USPOD approved mail receptacle at the addressee's location? Where is the proof the cancel was actually applied by the USPOD and actually contemporary to the date noted on the envelope.

So the OP should just soak the stamp off the cover and toss the envelope away and keep just the 100% certain stamp. Right?

There is a reason for Occam's razor.

Kind of like an election, we count the marks and award a winner without ever knowing if the mark made was actually the mark a voter intended as there is no such proof.
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Posted 12/01/2021   1:36 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The sarcasm is not necessary or appreciated.
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Posted 12/01/2021   4:46 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The sarcasm is not necessary


It was not sarcasm.

The fact is assumptions are make about postal history most of the time. Unless one is personally involved in the creation or transport of an item, the item itself does not prove much of anything. When that item is separated from those involved in the creation and carriage of the item only assumptions can be made.

One common assumption is generally postal employees properly carry out their duties. I will use classic FDCs and EKUs as an example. Each is date dependent with the assumption the postal employee was not backdating an item. Yet mistakes happen. A nine can be inverted and appears as a six, thus producing an item three days earlier than the EKU which was the 9th. Likewise, could someone back date a FDC the next day to get the FDC date even though the clerk or postmaster did not want to open the office on a holiday such as New Years Day. Short answer, "Yes." For those who have an interest in 12-7-1941 Hawaii postal history, it is well known that there are many 12-7-1941 dated items which were back dated, especially on military post office matter.

I have the earliest known dated parcel post usage which is tied on a post card dated 8-16-1912. That is months earlier than the 12-31-1913 dated usage of a 2 cent Parcel Post mailed on an envelope to none other than Carrol Chase (has cert circa 2010, but at the moment I don't remember if PF or APEX). Now the 8-16-1912 dated usage is a very clear strike but since the stamp design was not even created by 8-16-1912, what gives? Well, the post office of mailing was a seasonal resort area small post office where the clerk or postmaster failed to change the year of 1912 to 1913 for the new season. Here the facial evidence establishes the dated postmark while "real and official" could not have been applied that day.

Now I excluded "recent" FDCs since those can be dated for the Fist Day date but be applied a day, weeks or months after that date. Yet modern dating errors still happen as on a registered package I sent one night at about 11:30 PM using a night window in Oakland BMF that was not usually open. The other window was the normal late night window. Well the clerk pulled open the drawer, moved items around and grabbed the round dater for registered mail and neatly beat the heck out of the package as required by regulations. She then showed me her work...and I mention that it was August not still April. She, clearly shaken by the error, then corrected all of the dates, including the one on my receipt.

As to modern FDCs, buying the stamp on the FD and mailing it from another location on the same day gets a FDC which was for certain (except for human error) actually cancelled on the First Day such as this recently acquired example:




Now in keeping with the theme of the OP, do you think the sender drove or flew the 346 or so crow-fly miles to San Francisco from Pasadena, California after buying the stamp? Does it really matter? As for the envelope, transit took eight days and thus it did go by airmail to China at least part of the way.

No, John Becker, no sarcasm was intended. I truly wanted to shed a bit of light on the number of routine assumptions made in this hobby.
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Edited by Parcelpostguy - 12/01/2021 4:48 pm
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Posted 12/01/2021   5:04 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry, Your last post is complete unrelated tangent.

Specifically, ALL I was asking for is documentation of the airmail-carrying flight schedule from Detroit to Cleveland in the late evenings to determine if this cover was mailed AFTER the last likely flights to carry airmail east (and stopping in Cleveland) or not. It is that simple - and it is a significant piece of the transportation puzzle. No more, no less.

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Posted 12/02/2021   3:19 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
One airmail flight left Cleveland after 1:30 AM and arrived in Detroit at 4:40 AM. Faster overnight than the circuitous overnight Cleveland to Detroit RPO service.

So while it is possible the letter when by air as the fastest method, the is still "not proof" to quote an earlier post that this envelope went by air, ground or was carrier by the USPOD nor delivered at all or otherwise subjected to human error; no, what happened to this envelope can only be assumed. But the percentages are on travel by air, but unless 100% is the percentage which potential human error removes as possible, there is no certainty.

Edit: Forgot to include by land the distance is 169 miles and 90 by air (approximate of course +/- a mile or so).
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Edited by Parcelpostguy - 12/02/2021 3:22 pm
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Posted 12/02/2021   3:47 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
One airmail flight left Cleveland after 1:30 AM and arrived in Detroit at 4:40 AM

Literature citation please. I don't doubt the data, it's just a matter of good research technique to document sources.
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