Stamp Community Family of Web Sites
Thousands of stamps, consistently graded, competitively priced and hundreds of in-depth blog posts to read
Stamp Community Forum
 
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some stamps?
Our stamp forum is completely free! Register Now!

Panama-Pacific Proof On Card? Doesn't Seem Right To Me.

Next Page    
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 30 / Views: 865Next Topic
Page: of 2
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
United States
1252 Posts
Posted 12/06/2021   9:35 pm  Show Profile Check rlsny's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add rlsny to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
In an upcoming Kelleher auction there is a stamp for sale listed as 12P2a. But it is on card backing. Roosevelt small die proofs were on cardboard pages, but I've never seen a Panama-Pacific on card. I have a feeling it is really a 12P2 - a Roosevelt album proof. I tried to find information on line about how the 1915 proofs were released, but no luck. Can someone confirm that they were not on card backing? 12P2 and 12P2a look very similar (other than yellowing usually associated with the latter). The borders around the design are roughly the same width. So it would be an easy mistake to make except - the card backing seems unlikely to me.
https://stampauctionnetwork.com/V/v76320.cfm
Send note to Staff

Pillar Of The Community
United States
893 Posts
Posted 12/07/2021   02:22 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply


I know of no P2a issued affixed to card. They were just on the paper upon which the image was printed. I have examine many and none have shown an indication of being affixed to card. Likewise none online in the Smithsonian Collection were listed as mounted when issued.

Besides the P2a items I own, I have examined others for sale. Also, some years ago much of the P2a set in government hands was displayed at one of our major shows as a court of honor or government display area. None were on card.

Now they have been "mounted" post production such as on a Scott Blank Album Page as shown here: https://www.si.edu/es/object/npm_0.058223.3.6

https://siegelauctions.com/lots.php...9&page_no=11 has lot 369 of the Siegel Sale 1129 2016 Rarities of the World which discusses the history of the Panama Pacific Proofs (P2a). You can also do a power search on Siegel's sight and review all of the P2a items to see if any were on card or more specifically confirm none were issued on card.

As to the item shown by Kelleher, the card looks to be Roosevelt Page material.

You may wish to post your question at the Frajola Board site and you should get some quick but detailed answers.

{Edit: Regarding '12P2', see my post below. I was answering if P2a came issued as mounted.}
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by Parcelpostguy - 12/07/2021 3:40 pm
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
7463 Posts
Posted 12/07/2021   09:35 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I would also suggest contacting James Lee. He is very approachable and willing to help and will most definitely know the skinny.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
United States
198 Posts
Posted 12/07/2021   12:27 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Richard Frajola to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It is a Roosevelt proof not a Panama Pacific small die. The 12P2a is more yellow brownish that this and the paper more toned. Also, note that the proof on offer has a defect at bottom right of design. I suspect it is faulty.

Below is the copy of a #12P2a from the Frederick Mayer collection (the only example I have seen in the flesh).
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by Richard Frajola - 12/07/2021 12:46 pm
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
United States
1252 Posts
Posted 12/07/2021   2:56 pm  Show Profile Check rlsny's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add rlsny to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks guys. This sounds consistent with my experience. The story about the 1915 proofs is that they were found in envelopes with around 3-4 copies of each stamp. There is no mention of anything like a presentation album.

I dropped a note to Kelleher.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
7463 Posts
Posted 12/07/2021   3:04 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I will guarantee you that this came out of Lang stock and was described as a Panama Pacific proof. As with all Lang material caveat emptor.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
893 Posts
Posted 12/07/2021   3:33 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I dropped a note to Kelleher.


Here is where it gets difficult, what is Kelleher to do? Scott only list two proofs for 12:

1-12p1 Type 1, large die proof on India paper.

2-12p2a Type 1 as "PP sm die on yelsh wove paper".

No P2 Roosevelt listing.

Additionally there is no listing for 12 Essays, the catalog runs 11-E24 then 13E1.

So what listing description should Kelleher use? Langs (in spite of the
Quote:
As with all Lang material caveat emptor.
) if ex-Langs, Bill picked the closest to a catalog listed choice. Perhaps a P2a pasted on a backing to resemble a P2. Otherwise we are needing to be looking to see if this is an unlisted 12E essay.


So choices seem to be:
1 - Unknown Essay
2 - Unknown Roosevelt Proof
3 - Altered (mounted) real P2a.

Without further information 3 is the winner by default.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by Parcelpostguy - 12/07/2021 3:43 pm
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
United States
1252 Posts
Posted 12/07/2021   3:40 pm  Show Profile Check rlsny's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add rlsny to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
This is one I know the answer to. I wrote the Roosevelt proof section on Stamp Smarter. It is 42p2. I forgot that numbering, but checked my site. https://stampsmarter.org/proof/Home_proofs.html
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
2501 Posts
Posted 12/07/2021   3:55 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Yep, 42P2 is correct.

They used PO Die 91, with the full design for the 5c Roosevelt printing.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Moderator
Learn More...
United States
10121 Posts
Posted 12/07/2021   3:57 pm  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The Stamp Smarter card proof exhibit (for comparison) is here https://stampsmarter.org/proof/cardproofs3.html
Don
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
893 Posts
Posted 12/07/2021   8:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I wrote the Roosevelt proof section on Stamp Smarter. It is 42p2.


Well, 42P1-4 are all type II. The photo in the Kelleher *is posted below looks like a type I as there is no indication of trimming on the top and bottom protrusions. See the 12P2a posted by Richard Frajola above for comparison. Now there are some minor variances in the cutting, but nothing that has all of the image as shown in type I be it the Kelleher or Frajola image.

[*If they exist, I do not have the tools to copy from either the catalog PDF nor the SAN image. Perhaps it is time for me to join SAN if someone can confirm that then allows image copying. My screen shot tool does not produce a type of image extension that SCF allows me to post.]


NOTE: If any can, it would be helpful to this thread is the Kelleher 12P2a auction image could be copied to this thread.


Quote:
They used PO Die 91, with the full design for the 5c Roosevelt printing


If that, full design, means the type I image then that is a problem. Scott lists the 42 proofs as type II, including the P2 Roosevelt as, "42 P2 5c org brn, type II, RA sm die on white wove paper"

If in fact it is type 1, then it does not belong listed under 42 but rather as 12, specifically 12P2.

I now repeat my prior comment, what is Kelleher to do as the item in its present state is not listed in Scott. Perhaps it needs to be under 12 or the 42 P2 listing needs to be corrected as to type.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by Parcelpostguy - 12/07/2021 8:34 pm
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
7463 Posts
Posted 12/07/2021   8:18 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
7463 Posts
Posted 12/07/2021   8:28 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Could it be a trial color plate proof? James Lee has a few for sale in different colors on wove paper.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
893 Posts
Posted 12/07/2021   8:29 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you rodgcam. As all can now plainly see this should be regarded as type I.

[If you would be so kind, send me an email on the SCF system and explain how you did it.]
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
893 Posts
Posted 12/07/2021   8:32 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Could it be a trial color plate proof?


The 42P4 is listed as a plate proof on card. Specifically plate II.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
7463 Posts
Posted 12/07/2021   8:36 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
From James Lee's site here is a 12TC5c on wove paper:



He has other colors/catalog numbers for sale.

https://www.jameslee.com/1851ess.htm
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Page: of 2 Previous TopicReplies: 30 / Views: 865Next Topic  
Next Page
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.


Go to Top of Page
Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Stamp Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2022 Stamp Community Family - All rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Stamp Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Privacy Policy / Terms of Use    Advertise Here
Stamp Community Forum © 2007 - 2022 Stamp Community Forums
It took 0.7 seconds to lick this stamp. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05