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Penalty Use Embossed Envelope 3 Cent. Which Die?

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Pillar Of The Community
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Posted 12/08/2021   11:58 am  Show Profile Check 3193zd's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add 3193zd to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I can't determine which die this is. 144 or 145.
The "N" 2mm bottom, top barley under 2mm.
spacing between n and S is wide.
both 3s seem to slope left.
the head seems to measure 9mm or larger
water mark 19
"cents" across measurement is over 11mm.
nose is blunt



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Michael Darabaris

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Posted 12/09/2021   08:14 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jobi01 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Bobbed nose is probably due to a worn die. A check of the UPSS Penalty Overprint catalog shows this to be type VI, variety 10 which is known on size 13 white envelopes with Die 143 and Die 145. Allowing for the nose, this is probably an electrotype of Die 143. The cancel combined with the penalty overprint and the bobbed nose make identification of the die difficult.

My book, Collectors GUIDE TO THE CIRCULAR DIES and Thomas' catalog of the penalty overprints are available on-line at http://upss.org/code/publications.php

If this is Die 144 it would be a new discovery and should be reported to Thomas Galloway, editor of the penalty overprint catalog.
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Bill Lehr
US Postal Stationery Specialist
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Posted 12/09/2021   09:12 am  Show Profile Check 3193zd's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 3193zd to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The stand outs against 143 are; the is length of cents, 3s aren't vertical, the "C" is not open and the "E" is not closer to inner circle than N
Here is the identifiers for
Die 143/A(1)
Both 3's are vertical; both dark violet and purple.- no
Large head 9 mm - yes
C of CENTS is round and open. -no closed
Distance across CENTS: 9 mm -no 10.25mm
EN of CENTS measures 4 mm across bottom. -no 4.75mm
U of UNITED is mm from the left circle of value (close). -possibly
Lettering is heavy (broad) but well formed. -broad but not well formed
E of CENTS is closer to the inner circle than the N of CENTS. -no
S of CENTS is very short at the upper end. -Yes
S of CENTS some distance from the right circle -Yes
Distance between the D of UNITED and the first S of STATES is wide. -no
Printed on the Huckins press.

Die 145/F(6)

C of CENTS is round; -yes and closed
N is narrow (2 mm at bottom; 1 mm at top) no
Both 3's slant to the left; printed in dark violet only. yes
Small head 8 mm -no
Lower bar of the E of POSTAGE is mm (far) from the right circle. -yes
NTS of CENTS is widely spaced at the bottom. -yes
Heavy strands of hair resemble bumps. -can't tell
Nose is bluntly rounded at the tip. -yes
O of POSTAGE is wide. -yes
N of CENTS is narrow. -no

But the large head is almost the deciding point that it is 143! this is my frustration.

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Michael Darabaris
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Posted 12/09/2021   10:27 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ThomasGalloway to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Could we see a scan of the back, please. Often there is further evidence to consider in the knife.

(putting my chips on the Die 143 square)
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Posted 12/09/2021   11:10 am  Show Profile Check 3193zd's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 3193zd to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
So size is 6.75 x 3.75



IS the give away the head size?
but the "E"in cents isn't higher among other differences. I have many 143s
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Michael Darabaris
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Posted 12/09/2021   11:17 am  Show Profile Check 3193zd's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 3193zd to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
where can I find envelope sizes that relate to the #10, 13, 23
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Michael Darabaris
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Posted 12/09/2021   12:53 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ThomasGalloway to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
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Pillar Of The Community
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Posted 12/09/2021   3:06 pm  Show Profile Check 3193zd's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 3193zd to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
so this is a size 13 envelope.
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Michael Darabaris
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Posted 12/09/2021   3:09 pm  Show Profile Check 3193zd's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 3193zd to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
any insight as to why there is a jewish star on the cover? I have another with a triangle and another with a stamped red jewish star.
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Michael Darabaris
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Posted 12/09/2021   7:42 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ThomasGalloway to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Size 13: yes
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Pillar Of The Community
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Posted 12/09/2021   7:48 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ThomasGalloway to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
"any insight as to why there is a jewish star on the cover?": no insight; not Jewish star; just the symbol for the Dead Letter Office.
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Posted 12/10/2021   06:52 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add blcjr to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
More specifics about the star of David:

https://www.linns.com/news/us-stamp...rn-cove.html

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Posted 12/10/2021   08:53 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ThomasGalloway to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
re knife: the back side of this envelope is displayed upside down (just as an FYI - OP please correct me if otherwise). The square end flaps point to K79. The artifacts (mismatched knife components) of a rotary press (the Kenny Press in this case) are clearly K79:

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Pillar Of The Community
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Posted 12/10/2021   09:02 am  Show Profile Check 3193zd's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 3193zd to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
yes it was upside down. so Kenny press means its not 143?
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Michael Darabaris
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Posted 12/11/2021   7:06 pm  Show Profile Check 3193zd's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 3193zd to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
So is this 143 on a new envelope or were they issued on this type?
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Michael Darabaris
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Posted 12/12/2021   10:23 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ThomasGalloway to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Not sure I understand your last, . . .

In the meantime, consider this scenario:
1. Envelope contractor removes the dies from Kenny Presses and runs one or many rolls of paper through the Kennys resulting in stacks of envelope blanks.
2. Envelope contractor processes the blanks through Huckins machines with Die 143's installed.
3. Somewhere in the stacks of 3-cent envelopes is "your" envelope, which later become penalty overprinted envelopes. And the rest is history (as they say). This has been known to have happened.

Far fetched, you say?

Well, the UPSS 20th Century Envelope Catalog has listings for more than 20 of these, what I call "die/knife mismatches", of which your (potential) new entry would only be the 21st. So, not all that far fetched.

Lots of things to consider. I'll see if I can get Dan Undersander (catalog editor) to look at this thread.
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