Stamp Community Family of Web Sites
Thousands of stamps, consistently graded, competitively priced and hundreds of in-depth blog posts to read
Stamp Community Forum
 
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some stamps?
Our stamp forum is completely free! Register Now!

Help With Understanding A Double Impression On A Stamped Envelope

 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 11 / Views: 489Next Topic  
Pillar Of The Community
United States
686 Posts
Posted 01/25/2022   11:15 am  Show Profile Check 3193zd's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add 3193zd to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
So I am struggling with how this doubling occurs on a stamped envelope. I understand a partial double impression on a stamp. when this occurs ink is applied a second time. this causes more ink to be applied to the surface of the stamp. So isn't that the same for a stamped envelope? So why do we have a larger uninked areas? the letters and triangles are bigger with the doubling. Yes? Or am I missing something? I would expect the letters and triangles to be smaller and deformed. Dan tried to explain it to me but I couldn't grasp it.


Send note to Staff
Michael Darabaris

Pillar Of The Community
United States
534 Posts
Posted 01/26/2022   07:07 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jobi01 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Usually more obvious as a halo effect around the head. Not a true doubling but a printing artifact caused by forcing the paper into the cachet for the embossing. The doubling on stamps is caused by either a double entry of the die in a given position or by multiple strikes in the printing press.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Bill Lehr
US Postal Stationery Specialist
Pillar Of The Community
United States
686 Posts
Posted 01/26/2022   08:16 am  Show Profile Check 3193zd's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 3193zd to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Bill So I was told this was made from two impressions in production. I am sorry but I still don't understand what you said.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Michael Darabaris
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
614 Posts
Posted 01/26/2022   08:34 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ThomasGalloway to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Record my vote for "re-entry".

A printing artifact would leave its effects uniformly across the whole indicium. This being a flat plate press, pressure of the strike would be applied everywhere at once.

It is just a guess, but I think that what we would call a hob die is in this case a series of what you might call "hob components" and could be applied individually.

Observations: these doubling of letters almost always occur in the lower right quadrant. Doubling of teeth usually occur in the upper left quadrant, though with teeth they can cover more territory than doubled letters.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
686 Posts
Posted 01/26/2022   08:40 am  Show Profile Check 3193zd's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 3193zd to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
A hob Die?
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Michael Darabaris
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
614 Posts
Posted 01/26/2022   4:49 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ThomasGalloway to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Master die ---> hob die ---> working die.

Dies that are used on presses to produce actual indicia on envelope blanks are referred to as "working dies". The image on the working die is a mirror image of the desired design. When used on a press, the result produced is the desired image.

The die where the engraver first sinks the design is referred to as a "master die". The design is a mirror image of the desired end result. It appears identical to the working dies.

In between there is another die that is used to reverse the image between the master die and the working dies. It is called a "hob die". (The term "hub die" is also used. I prefer hob.)

There are numerous configurations of these die design types. For example, if a design is expected to produce a small quantity of envelopes, then they might simply print directly from the master die.

You could have multiple master dies, multiple hob dies, hob die components, etc., etc.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
686 Posts
Posted 01/26/2022   5:34 pm  Show Profile Check 3193zd's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 3193zd to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Got it so the hub die makes the production (working)dies so less wear and tear on the master die and also reverse the image. SO you are saying this hub die has this defect in it that caused the appearance of doubling to the right side?
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Michael Darabaris
Pillar Of The Community
Canada
1791 Posts
Posted 01/26/2022   5:38 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Just_fella to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
@Thomasgalloway
Hey, thanks for that information!
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
614 Posts
Posted 01/27/2022   08:32 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ThomasGalloway to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
"SO you are saying this hub die has this defect in it that caused the appearance of doubling to the right side?"

No. If you were to print an envelope with a hob die, the indicium would be the mirror image of a U311.

I am merely speculating on there having been a hob component that was used to "freshen" the working die (or possibly freshen a (complete design) hob die, which then was used to freshen working dies).

Examine this Die 88b, Cap on 2:



Notice the doubling on the outer tooth line, left side. First, observe that all teeth are doubled in exactly the same manner. Would you expect that if the scenario was an engraver was freshening the die tooth by tooth? Secondly, observe there is no doubling on the rest of the tooth lines. How does this happen?

Fun speculation. This is why I love to collect envelopes.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
686 Posts
Posted 01/27/2022   09:19 am  Show Profile Check 3193zd's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 3193zd to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
So I agree that the engraver didn't do it. But I know when making a coin die they will stamp it twice and it won't align properly causing a slight doubling to one side. almost exactly like this stamped envelope. Now there are times when in actual production the coin is punched twice and it won't align properly with the first punch causing machine damage doubling. But it is a very different look than die doubling. What I want to know is how this was done? On the working die or in the production process? and if in production how?
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Michael Darabaris
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
614 Posts
Posted 01/28/2022   08:23 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ThomasGalloway to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
". . . and it won't align properly causing a slight doubling to one side. almost exactly like this stamped envelope.""

I think this is exactly what's happening here. The die was softened and then one of two scenarios follows. (1) an engraver works with the now soft metal; or (2) a hardened hob die is used to refresh the worn or damaged softened working die. Sometimes both steps are taken.

The working die is then hardened and returned to service. In the case of OP's envelope, the hob die(s) were a little off target and you get an effect like the coin scenario he presented.

[Caveat: there probably are multiple scenarios that are plausible.]
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
686 Posts
Posted 01/28/2022   08:57 am  Show Profile Check 3193zd's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 3193zd to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
This is what I thought! But another told me that didn't happen this was the result of the paper moving when the envelope was stamped in production and it stamped a second time a little offset creating the doubling. But this scenario couldn't be explained properly so I didn't think that is what happened here.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Michael Darabaris
  Previous TopicReplies: 11 / Views: 489Next Topic  
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.


Go to Top of Page
Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Stamp Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2022 Stamp Community Family - All rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Stamp Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Privacy Policy / Terms of Use    Advertise Here
Stamp Community Forum © 2007 - 2022 Stamp Community Forums
It took 0.62 seconds to lick this stamp. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05