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Precancel On A Blank Coil

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Valued Member

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Posted 02/19/2022   10:18 am  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add mljespe to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Need help on a coil stamp I came across in a box lot from 1930s to 1940's. Couple of questions

1) Is it just a faded coil (I can't see anything, no faint pattern etc)

2) Is it just a precancel printed at the end or beginning of a coil roll selvage (is there such a thing)... coil waste??

Thanks in advance!

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United States
71 Posts
Posted 02/19/2022   10:25 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add mljespe to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
A little more info.

I held it at an angle under the light and could barely make out the upper right impression and the bottom of the stamp.

I "think" it is a colorless (faded or just no color) #806 Presidential 2 ct Adams.

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Valued Member
United States
71 Posts
Posted 02/19/2022   10:27 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add mljespe to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
#841 since it is a coil.
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United States
15 Posts
Posted 10/31/2022   06:34 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add JustAnotherSwell to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The denizens of history may fade, but precancels are forever.
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Posted 10/31/2022   06:54 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply



I think I see a design impression?
Don
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Bedrock Of The Community
Australia
36809 Posts
Posted 10/31/2022   08:55 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, Don
it fits with the curvatures of Adams hair.
But your yellow square needs to be 1mm left of current position.

So does Magenta pigment disappear with light?

The only stamp I have seen the colour near disappear was Cyprus

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Edited by rod222 - 10/31/2022 09:14 am
Pillar Of The Community
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Posted 10/31/2022   10:40 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Not choice #1 or #2. Rather given the production issues during WWII, it could be an under inked or uninked albino impression which was not culled as printer's waste. Removal or fading for the 2 cent's ink should not be the issue.

As such this is a very interesting item.

I would send it in to the APEX for a certificate ( as an unpriced in Scott item, the cost will be the minimum). Albino or under-inked, the cert will confirm this is a fantastic Prexie item for the Prexie specialists.
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Posted 10/31/2022   11:09 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
If it is not a color changeling, then I lean towards this being a 'blank' stamp from a coil leader or trailer (I collect them) as shown here


My current collection US coil leaders and trailers only includes 3-4 pre-cancels so my knowledge is limited with them. But I do have this group of precancel coil leaders and trailers headed my way and will post again if I learn anything new about them

Don
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Posted 10/31/2022   11:20 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
then I lean towards this being a 'blank' stamp from a coil leader or trailer (I collect them) as shown here


The perforated coil leaders do not have embossing from the stamp design's printing plate. The OP's stamp clearly shows prior contact with a printing plate.
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Posted 10/31/2022   11:32 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Broke my own rule from months ago, "never reply to a Parcelpostguy post, differing opinions are not allowed" Won't happen again.
Don
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Posted 10/31/2022   3:23 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The red end of the spectrum always seem to be the most suseptible to fading. A quick test with bleach shown here. (left half went down the drain during the rinsing, so I bisected the remainder!), and not taken all the way to complete color removal. The engraving of the plate leave a visible imprint in the paper when held at an angle.



I sense tweaking the soak time and bleach concentration could achieve the same results as the original poster's stamp. I would not be surprised if light exposure would also achieve a similar result.

My vote is for chemical or light fading.
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Posted 10/31/2022   4:04 pm  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you John, you saved me some time as I was setting up the same test this afternoon. (I was going to test light bleaching, peroxide, and acetone.)

My first inclination is also a changeling as I stated in my post above

Quote:
If it is not a color changeling, then I lean towards this being a 'blank' stamp from a coil leader or trailer...

Emphasis added since a previous poster left this part of my post out of his quote.
Don
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Canada
48 Posts
Posted 10/31/2022   6:04 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add wayner_11 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Just for fun I am attaching a stamp that doesn't seem to have any remnants of the old ink. Looks like 14 perf, Imperial Crown watermark and you can see the rest. Something tells me it is a King Edward VII from GB but I can't make out any image...
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Bedrock Of The Community
Australia
36809 Posts
Posted 10/31/2022   10:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
British Offices in the Turkish Empire.
Sc#8 1902 King Edward Vll 40 paras on 2d Surcharge

Check with Watermark #30 Perf guage, comb 14, Ultramarine.
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Edited by rod222 - 10/31/2022 10:23 pm
Valued Member
Canada
48 Posts
Posted 11/01/2022   08:01 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add wayner_11 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks rod222. Google searches with 40 PARAS that close to the bottom were all pointing to the ultramarine. Don't know how or why it's gone now.
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Posted 11/01/2022   1:29 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Emphasis added since a previous poster left this part of my post out of his quote.
Don


As I trust you are aware, coil leaders and trailers were additional paper added to the sheets (paste-up) after the sheets were printed. Clean paper, not culled printer's waste, was used for such added paper to finish the coils; this is not discussing the denominating printed leaders added for roll identification of the finished product. . Since there is part of the stamp design impressed on the paper, the OP's item should not be considered leader/trailer in my opinion.

That information was intended to address only your leader/trailing comments and had nor has anything to do with addressing changelings of which the OP's stamp could be.

I stand by my suggestion to send the item in to the APEX for determination. Debate here on the SCF will still have the outcome that the OP will still have no idea. An APEX cert request will have three possibilities, good, not good and no opinion. The not good would be an environmental changeling or chemical alteration. The no opinion would mean, could be a changeling but not sure. Severely ink starved to no ink due to starvation exist in the WWII production period. Additionally a separated paper splice can result in the lower paper being revealed, design embossed but uninked. Not possible and should not occur are miles apart with the former an absolute, e.g. an inverted center is not possible on a single color stamp, when more than one color is used, such should not occur or is not possible depending one which printing press process was used. The OP's example should not occur, but it is not a "not possible."

As to a color changeling, where the ink pigment goes or is taken away, the entire stamp should show the dimenstionality of the engraved design only part of which is visible in the OP's photo. At the APEX the "crime scope" would be used and that often reveals left over chemical alteration chemicals.
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