Nothng More Than An Investment

In my opinion the thread has not veered to politics, it contains good tax information for collectors/sellers.

What I feel has veered to politics is the highly divisive culture that wants to paint everything as 'us' vs. 'them'. I try my best to moderate the community in a fair way and avoid 'cancelling' posts and threads because I feel that it only adds to divisiveness. As such, I try to only intervene when a thread becomes overtly politically partisan. For example, calling out specific political people or 'teams'.
Don

To Don, and try to stay a-political and stay to facts.




These comments are consistent with a stamp centered discussion and the new idea of a vault in a non-sales taxed state. If I buy my next stamp on line and take delivery in my multi-generational old home town, I must pay and additional 10.75% to do so if I take personal delivery. So what? Well, if the stamp is just worth $100 total, gross with all associated expenses, I must bid less than $90 for it while my friend in Nevada can bid $98 with the other $2 for shipping. This means I lose more stamps to others taxed less but more importantly, the seller is losing money to the tax man and or to the reduction of bidders no longer bothering as they know they cannot be competitive.

Enter the vault, delivery to Oregon may reduce the need to pay sales tax in California. However sale tax in California on internet purchases are based on the IP location and or delivery location. Just one makes it a California purchase.

If my favorite dealer is located outside of California, but now by doing business in California is subject California Non-Resident income taxes the dealer must charge more for his material to cover the new income tax cost to him or choose to stop doing California business. In either case I have to either pay more or lose a dealer who withdraws from the California Market.

As the first tax post mentioned, WESTPEX is set in California (Burlingame adjacent to the SF Int'l Airport). So what? Well it is the second largest annual stamp show after the APS Summer show (which is in California's Capitol this year). If dealers choose to avoid California, WESTPEX and California stamp collectors will suffer. Thus the discussion of taxation, poverty rate (which California desires to eliminate via taxation) driving taxation and expansion of non-resident income taxation directly affects the purchase and sale of stamps is on point. Likewise tax considerations are a major driving force in consideration of investments which stamps become if you buy, never receive, and then sell; they, the stamps so held, are divorced from the hobby and converted into abstract financial instruments.

Lastly, why is California and its tax information important to stamp collecting? It has the largest GDP of all states and territories, providing 14.77% (2021) of the US GDP and it take money, especially disposable money, to buy the stamps that support the dealers.

[Edited for English]

I just wanted to point out that these comments concerning Poverty Levels in one state, comparing them to others, don't necessarily add to any value in a Stamp related discussion. If I am missing the connection, please feel free to comment. Otherwise, I'm moving back to purely stamp-related activities.

You are making assumptions about the poster's intent; you are not a mind reader nor am I. Calling out a post based upon assumptions about the poster's intentions cannot be a criterion for cancelling/censoring posts. If we start making assumptions about a poster's intentions, then I could easily remove your posts here saying that I think you are just using 'politics' to shut down opinions that do not agree with yours. Is this where we are at now? Staff is expected to remove anything that anyone can assume is 'political'?

If moderating this community means that I have to cancel/censor posts in the context of any possible intention of the poster; then I quit.
Don

You know, life is too short. I'll just tune out any comments that I perceive to be political and poisoning the intent of the discussion, and move one. Thanks for all you do moderating this very useful forum.

IMO PPG's comments added context. If I don't like a comment, I respond or more likely change the channel. I am done with the entire canceling thing and so should anyone else be that is not afraid of arguing something on its merits. Most people that want something canceled have no facts to back up an opposing POV.

It has become nonsense to completely remove politics from a hobby such as philately that is on its whole full of politics and history. Try sanitizing the civil war or any war and so on.

I am selling thicker skins for those interested.

LOL

I was adding detail and context to the quote I listed from jpalermo1964 which pointed out the high income tax rate in California. Other taxes exist in California because its citizens as a group think poverty should be addressed and reduced or ideally eliminated while being addressed through taxation.

As pointed out by cjpalermo1964 California is now exploring collecting more tax on out of state sellers in the form of income tax (personal or corporate). You need not agree or disagree with the why nor the noble intended target for spending the tax money, BUT one needs to understand the increase and spread of taxation will impact both sellers and buyers of stamps.

As commerce methods change, taxation follows behind changing as well. For decades, internet sales were not taxable unless certain conditions were met. Then a couple of years ago that was changed by a SCOTUS ruling and internet sales can be taxed by sales taxes. Can means may not must, but as some jurisdictions have decided to charge sales tax, that changes the playing field for all bidders and buyers of stamps in this internet age.

Other changes occurred due to the pandemic and working from home. Employees were taxed where they physically worked (e.g. at their office) but when they began to work from home and home was in a different state than their office, they stopped paying tax in the state of the office location. Some states felt a large loss of revenue and said no matter where you worked from home, you still were in the office location and need to pay office location based income taxes. States went to court and such taxing (income) of now out of state workers in the home state of their office was upheld. It is not much of a stretch for California now to find a nexus to start collecting income tax on out of state folks earning income from California.

Such have been considerations in the stamp hobby for years. Before the SCOTUS internet sales tax ruling, a state could only collect sales tax if the business had a physical presence in the state. Well, I like to buy from Siegel's Auctions. They collected sales taxes in their home state but were required to collect sales taxes in California when California discovered one of the Siegel principals had a vacation home in California and at times did corporate work while at the vacation home. So what? It causes me to have to pay sales tax on Siegel purchases when other folks don't raising my stamp hobby costs.

To Partime I ask, will you pay 10% more for a stamp just because you are buying it from me in California when the same can be had without that 10% premium from a seller in Nevada? If your answer is yes you would pay 10% more, then by all means, ignore the details as they don't matter to you. However, most folks would not pay a 10% premium to buy from California and that my friend impacts all of the sellers and buyers in the philatelic hobby.

Lastly poverty is a fact based numbers definition without regard to gender, age, skin, hair or lack thereof, citizenship, immigration status or any other definers currently in vogue to sort and separate folks. The ten dollar bill in a wallet remains a ten dollar bill no matter whose pocket has the wallet and if you only have a ten to your name you are impoverished--all politics aside.

The goals of the eBay Vault I see as three fold, make more income for eBay, reduce costs to buyer and sellers via elimination of certain normal costs such as taxes. Headquartered in California, eBay did not pick Oregon, a no sales tax state, by accident nor whim.

I see your and raise you a .

All information matters in a discussion especially when it is a complex topic. Unless the topic needs to be "dumbed down" in order not to offend sensibilities. Heck, we could go all emoji's instead of using all those messy dang words and facts that can be soooo inconvenient at times.

My whole point of starting this was to point out stuff held in a vault and never taken possession of by the buyer are nothing more than an investment and this is not collecting.

I disagree. I have items that went straight to a safe deposit box. Others went into a stockbook and I have not looked at them in years. I have a muscle car in storage in another State. They don't count? Why exactly?

When I was overseas for six years I had purchases sent to a friend for safekeeping and never saw them. Not a collector?

Does looking at images of the remotely stored items count?

What are the rules.

I don't get where the requirement that you have an item in your house defines you as a collector. If it is in a safe in your house does that count?

To save you wading through my text you would find I wrote:




I understand this comment of your, rogdcam:



But I must point out that you took delivery of the items in question and have direct control over them. That is not the case in the eBay vault as pointed out by eyeonwall. I am a well know as a black hole for all thing parcel post, when they come to me folks never see them again. I control where they are right at hand or a real pain to get to but I control them. As to my classic vehicle, I still own it and if the nice police ever find it again, I might control it again.

I am not talking about tax implications but about what defines a collector. Would love to see the rules book.

Parcelpost - my ;ast post was not directed at you specifically

rog - yes, I make a distinction between something you take possession of and place in a safety deposit box that you can visit (or things sent stateside while overseas vs. something you have sent straight to a vault that you never touch.

To each their own.

I knew eyeonwall, I was tossing support to your position.