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Photoshopped Rd159 For Sale On Hipstamp

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Posted 03/20/2022   7:31 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
If I were the seller of the listings called out here, I would be happy to know that a problem exists and take the opportunity to address and try and fix it. Hopefully Mark will chime in. Maybe whomever is describing the material is doing Mark a disservice and he is unaware. In any case letting sleeping dogs lie never works out in the long run. Knowledgeable buyers will likely not deal with RP when so many stamps are improperly identified, and faults are apparently hidden or not described.
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Posted 03/20/2022   7:32 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I have been very careful not to name anyone in my post, but to generalise.


The entire topic is about Hipstamp and Rosenberg Philatelic, so I am not sure how that is working out.
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Posted 03/20/2022   7:35 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add GMC89 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
RP in my opinion is not a malicious seller, deliberately selling mis I'd material. Over the past 3 or 4 years on Hip what I have observed is that his site is a "shovelware " situation and they handle so much material that they don't have the time or resources to vet carefully all that comes in and goes out. I made this note in a previous post back. 4 months or so.
More importantly is the post that Don made, I.e. Where the market maker is also a market seller. Think Amazon, and the richest man I n the world Jeff Bezos, sorry Vladimir.
I swin in that pond, Hip, because there are vendors who take checks, subsequently I follow their listings. Again it's about relationships. I deal with Bob Gage on Hip, a tough grader. I deal with RAH stamps, another tough grader. As on eBay, caveat emptor. No free lunch.
For those who buy questionable material....live and learn. I have often seen material sell on RP that would shame Kellehers or Cherrystone who I do bid, or Siegel, who I don't bid.
Cheers Mark
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Posted 03/20/2022   8:04 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add bobplates to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The conflict of interest Don mentioned is not limited to online marketplaces. Just to mention a few brick and mortar marketplaces, think of Wall Street broker dealers or supermarkets or department stores.

Take a major supermarket chain like Kroger, for example. They know exactly what the customer base is buying and have extensive datasets to track that information. They have their own brands that they display prominently and price lower than their other sellers well advertised products. This product creation is the direct result of their knowledge of the customer base's preferences. They also control shelf space and determine visibility of their sellers' offerings. Market power.

And of course there is Amazon. The problem is much bigger in that case because of the dominant market share. They can just bully other sellers out of the market. What % of the philatelic market is Rosenberg Philatelics? 5%. That's probably overly generous. Where is the market power there? Also is there any evidence whatsoever that Rosenberg is manipulating prices or front running or the like. Those are pretty big assertions even if only offered up as hypotheticals. If there is evidence of that I would love to see it.

It has been reported Mark's wife runs the business. I do not know if that is true. Clearly they have a pipeline to inventory and shovel it out in a NY Stamp sort of fashion. I would think that the prices realized reflect that to a degree. Not my preferred business model but to each his own. And as I said before, the auction offerings at HIP was tumbleweed junction before Rosenberg started listing all this material. I have bought some lots and have been pleased by the pricing and good customer service. And as a seller I am mostly pleased by the service and the growing level of customer buy through.

I often read here that sellers who sell misdescribed material are scoundrels and crooks. Buyers who pick off an unsuspecting seller come here and crow about their great philatelic knowledge and the bargain they got. A strange juxtaposition where it seems the only victim is the unsuspecting buyer. Markets can be cruel masters but are truly the best conveyors of information. What is created are winners and losers. Do your homework, act as ethically as possible and follow the maxims caveat emptor AND venditor.

Perhaps Mark should have created a greater degree of separation between HIP and his family's business. I have never been treated unfairly at HIP as a seller or a buyer so I really can't agree with the general level of opprobrium here.

My respectful 2 cents.

Bob
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Posted 03/20/2022   8:08 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
RP in my opinion is not a malicious seller, deliberately selling mis I'd material.


I completely agree with the exception of images that have potentially been played with to eliminate or minimize things like cut cancels and faults. Problem is that an uneducated buyer ends up screwed whether the misidentification or cancel/fault not being disclosed properly was intentional or not.
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Posted 03/20/2022   8:29 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add GMC89 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Over the past 3 or 4 years or so what I have observed , not one auction. It's a buyer beware world, anywhere you visit, Rogdcam.
I completely agree with you bobplates, there are no free lunches or great bargains really, in the end you pay for what you get.
As I meantioned in an earlier post RP had a used 359 you could have picked up for under a 100 bucks, tremendous bargain!
Not for me, cheers, mark
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Posted 03/20/2022   9:02 pm  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
New marketing campaign for philately, 'It's a great hobby, buyer beware'.

In my opinion that is not good for the hobby. To me, it feels like throwing in the towel and giving up on ethical behavior. It is simply wrong to mislead a hobbyist into buying a stamp or cover that is not as expected. It is not good for folks breaking into the hobby, it is not good for the hobby itself.

We have heard justifications posted above 'Oh, they just move a lot of material' and 'Buyer beware' many times before. If we 'settle' for the <shrug> approach then we get what we deserve. Let's hope the hobby is so healthy that future generations of new hobbyists can tolerate 'buyer beware'.
Don
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Posted 03/20/2022   9:27 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add bobplates to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
What hobby is immune to unethical behavior? The art market? Comic books? Rare books? Coins? I recently read an estimate that said that over 20% of the paintings in major museums are suspected to be fakes. And those are the experts buying those paintings.

And throwing in the towel? Hardly. Being realistic and offering up education seem like the best antidotes. This site has done a great job at education and your contribution Don is truly commendable. Especially in bringing the hobby into the 20th century. Perhaps it can be brought into the 21st century one of these days.

I just find it hard to see how excessive moralization does anybody any good. You think an item is misdescribed and gets under your craw then notify the seller. If they do nothing call them out here in the public forum. And keep calling them out if the problems persist. And don't claim that it is only the sellers that take advantage of buyers. It is clearly a 2 way street. Goose. Gander.

I am sorry that is the way that I see it but I think there is a much greater evil in systems that promise perfection than those that hope to improve disclosure and flexibly seek improvement. I always think of the airline system. Is it perfect? No. Is it the best possible system that anyone has thought of to date. I think so. The safety record speaks to that.

HIP may not be perfect and I think Mark made a mistake not putting a greater layer of distance between HIP and his family's dealership. That said, I think that a healthy online competitor to eBay and the old time model of the hobby(auction houses, mail order, bourses...) is a general good and I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt because of that.

Bob
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Posted 03/20/2022   9:48 pm  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Bob,
I would never argue that 'buyer beware' or 'gee, they move a lot of material' is not part of any industry. That was not my point at all.

Think of it this way. You own a company and call a company meeting. Would anyone stand there and tell their employees, 'our customers just have to understand that it is buyer beware'? Or would anyone tell their sales department, 'our customers know that we shovel material out the door'. Frankly I would fire anyone who set a bar that low in my companies and do not consider this 'excessive moralization'.

Of course the world has plenty of people who take advantage of others and it always will; but that in no way means we should stop pushing for improvement and setting the bar higher.
Don

Edit: Please note that I have not said the HS/RP does any of these things. I have said that the conflict of interest optic is bad. I do not follow listings on HS although some of the posts in this thread show some pretty obvious issues.
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Posted 07/11/2022   11:27 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcanman to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Some devices are intended to cut the stamp but fail, leaving indentations only. These can be ironed out the same as can any light fold or wrinkle. If known to seller, it should be included in the description for the sake of transparency and full disclosure. I once owned a lovely strip of 3 of R136, the 6c Third Issue stamp. It bore a blue herringbone cancel that was so lightly impressed as to be nothing more than a handstamp. Was it cut cancelled? No! It was intended to be, but was not. The result and not the intent should control in such cases. The removal of dents caused by a cutter that failed to cut is closely akin. Is it a cut cancel or merely a strongly impressed handstamp? I suggest that if the paper is irretrievably broken at any point then it is a cut cancel, despite a cursory appearance of soundness.
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Posted 07/11/2022   12:35 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I once owned a lovely strip of 3 of R136, the 6c Third Issue stamp. It bore a blue herringbone cancel that was so lightly impressed as to be nothing more than a handstamp. Was it cut cancelled? No!


I assume that you never sent it in for a cert. The herringbone would certainly have been mentioned.
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