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US Postal Agency In China Quick Flip From Siegel To Paradise Auctions

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Posted 04/12/2022   7:45 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add rogdcam to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Now that was FAST. On 1 March Siegel held the Magnolia Sale Part Two of US Mail in China and Japan. A scant six weeks later a dozen of the sold Siegel lots are being offered for much greater opening bids and estimates. It is just odd. Any thoughts on what took place?

https://stampauctionnetwork.com/AB/abf6386.cfm
https://bid.siegelauctions.com/auct...t-2?limit=36


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Posted 04/12/2022   9:04 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Dealer felt the items went for a low enough price that the dealer felt they could make a profit by offering the items to their auction clientele.
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Posted 04/12/2022   9:31 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
That much is obvious (I guess). The question is, given the specialized nature of the material and the collectors interested in same, isn't it a bit much for Paradise to think that those collectors did not see the Siegel auction of one of the finest collections of said material extant but are now looking to Paradise for it? Or that those same collectors felt that the bidding was too rich at Siegel and now are willing to pay more()?

Posner is well known for scooping up lots at Siegel and listing them on eBay but you are talking about a different market entirely.

I just find the entire thing odd in many ways. A number of the Paradise US/China/Japan lots list the provenance correctly as being last sold in March by Siegel and give the Siegel sale price (SAN feature) along with the much higher Paradise opening. Curiously not every Siegel lot shows the provenance even though they sold in the same sale.

To summarize, a potential buyer can see that Lot X sold six weeks ago for $1000 at Siegel and is now opening at $1800 at Paradise.

It interests me what the mechanics and motivations are behind such things.

Back to your regular scheduled programming of "Perfs and Paper, Part 187" followed by the weather.
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Posted 04/12/2022   9:53 pm  Show Profile Check KRelyea's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add KRelyea to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
This is like the world turned upside down! The problem is we'll never know if they sell until they're listed in another Paradise sale.
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Posted 04/12/2022   10:36 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add mml1942 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The Shanghai cover with the Scott F1, at the top of the Paradise Auction link above, is also available on eBay from a seller in Texas.

See https://www.ebay.com/itm/234475028656
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Posted 04/12/2022   10:38 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Well, rodcam, I actually decided to stop thinking about making sense of auction when I bid and lost on an auction lot from a well respected auction firm. I was not the underbidder rather I was two increments or so low. I was a bidder on the phone. That was before the most recent time the calendar had three zeros in a row.

Not two weeks later I answered my phone to find Jack Molesworth calling me to offer a special item he just acquired with the description and price before I could say much beyond, "Hello Jack, whatcha got?" Yes, the price quoted was at least 10% less than my losing bid on the exact same item.
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Posted 04/12/2022   10:51 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add PostmasterGS to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Reminds of this one I saw last week. This lot sold on 24 November for €1,200, then was offered in February at the same auctionhouse with a starting bid of €4,000. It went unsold. Couldn't have helped that on Philasearch, the November auction result still showed up right next to the February auction listing.
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Posted 04/13/2022   12:19 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
As Mel points out several of these Siegel sale covers that are now listed with Paradise are also for sale on eBay right now by Hiplatelics. Soooo, it seems that the Hiplatelics fella won the lots, has them listed on eBay at huge premiums while also consigning them to Paradise? Or Paradise has an eBay account out of Texas? Or……..
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Posted 04/13/2022   01:04 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add mootermutt987 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Parcelpostguy, the lot you were interested in was most likely Molesworth's from the get-go. He likely had a silent reserve on it and it got bid up, but didn't break the reserve. Siegel's would have returned the unsold lot to Molesworth. Jack either knew who you were and knew you would be interested (and likely surmised that you were one of the top bidders) or he somehow got the info out of Siegel's. Suddenly, he doesn't have to worry about the seller's commission and he may have well decided to give you a break, too, and ended up selling it for less than your bid.

I used to work for a few auction houses and we would regularly get packages from various dealers. The packages were full of nice individual lots, often with reserves, and we would pick and choose which we wanted in our sale or not. We often picked stamps that we were sure would never meet the reserve, but they were cover-worthy stamps. Remember the Iran Inverted Shah? We got that one quite often from various dealers, thought it would 'add' to the sale and so we would run it with their reserve. We rarely actually sold one - they were overpriced for what they were. After the sale, we would pack up all the unsold lots for each dealer and send them back. Each place that I worked probably had 4 or 5 dealers where they had this deal. Molesworth was one.

ETA: I meant to respond to the original post. I think of Paradise as a retail seller, pricewise. His starts seem to be a bit higher than other starting bids. Buy at auction, at auction prices, and sell at retail. This formula can work if large lots are bought and broken down into individual lots, so each collector can get exactly what they want. Collector gets his stamp. Seller gets his profit. But I do see Paradise offering individual lots that were individual lots elsewhere. I just figure he thinks he scarfed up an opportunity, and is then trying to reap the rewards of that opportunity in his own sale.
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Edited by mootermutt987 - 04/13/2022 01:10 am
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Posted 04/13/2022   02:17 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
In my opinion Hiplatelics is a dealer who may or may not have the material, may or may not honor the price he sold it to you for, and then will doxx you in his reply to a eBay feedback. I would never buy from him again. http://goscf.com/t/79137

Don
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Posted 04/13/2022   07:50 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I KNEW that name rang a bell! Thanks Don. I would bet the ranch he does not have those covers. It makes no sense. He copied and pasted the Paradise auction descriptions as well.
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Posted 04/13/2022   09:42 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hoosierboy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Which is more problematic in the long run: Investing in bitcoins or philatelic material?
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Posted 04/13/2022   2:39 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add mootermutt987 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Bitcoin or stamps? In the LONG run? Bitcoin may very well not exist in 10 years (2 years???), but stamps and stamp collectors will still be around. Even if at 10% of today's levels. What kind of return would you prefer - 0% or 10%?? I am betting (literally) that stamps will do better than that, though.
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Posted 04/13/2022   3:31 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Please start a new thread if you want to talk about bitcoin. Please do not hijack this thread.
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Posted 04/13/2022   3:53 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Stephen J Bukowy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It is possible that Hipatelics is playing the arbitrage game of offering for sale something that he doesn't have but could get for less than what he is selling it for. If somebody buys from him at or above his asking price, he buys it from Paradise for less and makes money. If nobody buys it from him he doesn't but from Paradise. If the Paradise stamp goes for more than his on eBay, he withdraws the offer or claims it was already sold or misplaced or whatever.
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Posted 04/13/2022   6:42 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Oracle of Delphi to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Stephen - looks like you're onto what hiplatelics is doing. In the eBay listing, the location of the item is Concord NH which is where Paradise Valley Auctions is located. I presume hiplatelics (or Texas Philatelics) is located in Texas, given his phone number and store name.
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