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Used Scott US #317 With APS Certificate. Thoughts?

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Posted 05/24/2022   08:38 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add classic_paper to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
If so, what a disaster from a controls perspective, especially in a hobby with such detail. No use of carbon paper, mimeograph, photograph, or other record of what you (that is, APS) actually did and sent to the client? Back-office incompetency. It's not like they couldn't do it: the 1937 is #633, the '64 is #1638. That's an average of barely more than three certs a month.

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Posted 05/24/2022   10:10 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If so, what a disaster from a controls perspective, especially in a hobby with such detail.


Isn't that making rather a lot out of ONE cert being found? It was produced 90 years ago, who knows what happened in the interim. I'm sure the APS has a record of all the certs somewhere; they probably have little call for info on any from this era.
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Posted 05/24/2022   11:06 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Jarnipman to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
OP here. Off topic question, but how do I quote someone? So this is interesting, we did not consider that the cert could be the other half that APS kept in house. I can clearly see the earlier cert with a photo, but something is not adding up on many accounts. APS told us they are not sure if they have in-house copies of certs from 1964 and photos became standard by the 1970s. Hearing that directly from them, introduces some uncertainty in what a cert from 1964 is really supposed to look like. I like this idea that what we may have is the in-house copy that maybe got out from APS. How that could happen is beyond me, but perhaps Herman Herst, knowing who he was, had an especiallly close relationship with APS at the time and he got his hands on it?

If our cert is not genuine, has anyone seen any cases of faked certs from APS - particularly where the faker used both watermarks and embossing on the cert? I have not see this, but that might be that I just am not aware of it. I suppose anyone can buy watermarked paper and punch an embossing on it?

We also did note that Herman Herst was the submitter and that is what makes this all the more interesting. It would seem reasonable that if a stamp this rare were to surface it would be in his collection.

This process is now nerve racking thinking where the stamp is, probably on a plane or truck right now and I'm loosing sleep over a USPS truck running off the road, a tornado hitting the post office, etc. I will feel better once it gets to APS and back to us eventually
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Posted 05/24/2022   11:12 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add uboatnut to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Even if APS gives you a clean "genuine" cert, I'd suggest you consider also submitting it to the Philatellic Foundation for a second cert, as PF is considered the Gold Standard, especially for the truly valuable /unusual things.

Also, your stamp image would be much easier to examine if it were larger, higher resolution, and on a dark background instead of white.
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Edited by uboatnut - 05/24/2022 12:12 pm
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Posted 05/24/2022   11:42 am  Show Profile Check revenuecollector's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add revenuecollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
OP here. Off topic question, but how do I quote someone?


Unfortunately this board does not have an actual quote button compared to modern forum software. Instead, you have to copy the text in question into your reply and manually surround it with [ quote ] and [ /quote ] tags (but without the spaces).

See Forum code reference here: https://www.stampcommunity.org/pop_forum_code.asp
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Posted 05/24/2022   1:43 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Flov to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
All, As the possessor of this used #317 candidate, I began this amazing hobby at the age of 5 by removing stamps from letters mailed in 1944 by my G.I. dad from France to his war bride in England. Some thoughts:

First, given archiving would seem to be an APS core competency, it's amazing (to me) that the APS in its email to me stated "I am not sure that copies were even kept for certificates in 1964!"

Second, what corroborating detail does Scott have to use their " - " dash to signify a stamp does exist but valuation data is insufficient? I reached out to their guru Sergio Sisneros. But despite seeming like a good question, he has been silent on this matter.
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Posted 05/24/2022   2:05 pm  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Welcome.

The dash in the catalog has probably changed over the decades; here is the Intro of a previous version.


In my opinion the inclusion criteria for catalogs has also been ephemeral and includes' good ol' boy' relationships where elites of the hobby having significant influence compared to other hobbyists. I doubt that any catalog 'revision history' was maintained over the years and what/who and why things were added/changed is anyone's guess at this point.

As an example of some of the strange things that have happened is the following blurb from the book, "Post Office Seals of the United States and Possessions" by Jim Kotanchik


Don
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Posted 05/24/2022   2:26 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Jarnipman to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I don't have a really great image of the stamp as I took it with my cell phone and examined it closely under a loop. I would be happy to take a new high-res photo, but it's en route to APS. I agree that if APS confirms genuine since it's such a rare stamp, we would also send to PF for a second opinion. Also FYI, the user FOV who just joined as the possessor of this stamp - that's my father so we are both on here now regarding this stamp, don't worry there are not two used 317's floating around all of a sudden

Can anyone speculate what the value of this stamp might be if genuine? The stamp appears close to or VF
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Posted 05/24/2022   3:01 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Can anyone speculate what the value of this stamp might be if genuine?

Jarnipman, I may be reading this and your other posts about the rarity/value of this stamp incorrectly, but .... you appear to be analyzing the hopes of huge value of this stamp in a vacuum of supply=2, and forgetting that there are mint examples which have a very close financial relationship to the supply/demand equation for used examples. While not insignificant, I cannot see this being worth more than a mint example.
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Posted 05/24/2022   6:37 pm  Show Profile Check KRelyea's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add KRelyea to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
We have a quote button, it is 2nd from right with page and red arrow.

Just click it an insert quote in the middle where cursor is;



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Posted 05/24/2022   7:54 pm  Show Profile Check revenuecollector's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add revenuecollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting, thanks. I never use that full editor on the separate page. I only ever use the editor at the bottom of the thread, which has no buttons.
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Posted 05/24/2022   8:09 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add classic_paper to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Over 5k posts without using Full Reply, that's amazing.
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Posted 05/24/2022   8:36 pm  Show Profile Check revenuecollector's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add revenuecollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Not really. BB Code has been an industry standard of message board formatting for what, 20 years... 25 maybe? I know it by heart. I have no need for more a more extensive editor, especially when it takes me away from the existing thread page. YMMV of course.
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Edited by revenuecollector - 05/24/2022 8:36 pm
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Posted 05/26/2022   1:37 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add caspian65 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Would there possibly be any old Siegel sales catalogues with images of APS certificates from the 60's? Might be worth contacting someone there to inquire if there may be any examples they might have.
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Posted 05/26/2022   2:41 pm  Show Profile Check revenuecollector's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add revenuecollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Typically, the certs are mentioned in the catalogs, not shown. Siegel has all of their auction catalogs online as PDFs on their website.
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