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Germany: Cancellation Premium.

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Valued Member
Romania
226 Posts
Posted 08/03/2020   3:18 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cupram to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I did not find this "bahnpost" type cancellation.
It has the following markings:
BERLIN-WARNEMUNDE
BahnPost
ZUG 15
25/9/23
Is it a genuine cancellation / or forging?
Does the stamp block have added value with this type of cancellation?



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Valued Member
United States
232 Posts
Posted 08/03/2020   6:27 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Germania to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It's Michel 295, with a catalog value used of 2 euros per stamp. That's the minimum for used in that era. Here is a postmark that could be the same, or very close:

https://www.stampsx.com/ratgeber/st...hp?id=431282

In my opinion your item is genuine, but I am definitely not an expert on cancels.
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Valued Member
Romania
226 Posts
Posted 08/04/2020   03:46 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cupram to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you Germania.
I have another block of Mi # 319 stamps (I posted it on December 27, 2019)
For Mi # 319 B P HAN (used condition) it appears past the value in cat.Michel recent? (I have Michel specialized ed.2011)

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Valued Member
United States
232 Posts
Posted 08/04/2020   08:43 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Germania to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Your block is perforated, not rouletted, so it is Michel 319 A P a. According to the 2014 Specialized it does not exist used. So either that is a mistake or the cancel is a forgery. Comparing the postmark with the ones in the Stempeldatenbank on stampsx leads me to strongly believe your postmark is a forgery.

I found your December 27, 2019 post. In that thread bookbndrbob pointed out that the stamp was issued in October 1923 but your block is postmarked January 1923. Forgery.
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Edited by Germania - 08/04/2020 08:52 am
Valued Member
Romania
226 Posts
Posted 08/04/2020   11:45 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cupram to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
You are right Germania.Is A type
I do not understand the statement: "in used condition does not exist" I did not find this statement in my catalog.
If the value of the stamp is not listed in the catalog, I think it means that it has not been found yet.
Or if it is the symbol "-,-" this means that there are not enough transactions made to establish the value.
I do not know German and in "stampsX" (with the criteria of Deutsches Reich 1916-1923 and Mannheim) I found only three cancellations and none from 1923.
The fact that cancellation is backdated does not automatically lead to the conclusion that it is fake.
The differences in size / proportions and shape of the letters are not obvious to me to conclude that it is fake cancellation.
My hypothesis is that the cancellation is genuine, but wrongly set by the postal worker for the month number: 1 instead of 11.
I hesitate to send it to BPP for certification because I do not know what the catalog value is. I am not willing to pay more than 50E and I know that in addition to the fixed prices, a percentage (3-5%) of the catalog or market value is applied.
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United States
4614 Posts
Posted 08/04/2020   12:55 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add bookbndrbob to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The most likely scenario is that the cancellation is fake (it appears to be) and was applied by someone who really didn't care or know enough to use the correct period of usage.

To be sure about cancellations on these stamps, they need to be seen by a Bundespruefer/expertizer.
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Valued Member
United States
232 Posts
Posted 08/04/2020   3:43 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Germania to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I do not understand the statement: "in used condition does not exist"


A blank indicates the item does not exist in that format, or at least has not yet been submitted (as stated in Michel under the heading "Preisspalten" in the introductory text.) At least through 2014. I don't have a newer catalog yet. If one is found and is expertized by BPP then Michel would presumably list it.

This stamp was issued on October 27, 1923. Five days later (November 1) postage rates increased by a factor of 10. Since 20 million Marks was the new rate for a domestic letter it was issued in anticipation of the postage increase. But then 4 days later (November 5) postage rates increased again by another factor of 10. That made the stamp obsolete almost immediately. Using stamps with the HAN selvage (likely only by a philatelist), would be rare. In any case no such usage has come to light yet.
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Edited by Germania - 08/04/2020 3:45 pm
Valued Member
173 Posts
Posted 08/04/2020   5:30 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hornet785 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi,

For the Nr.319 A Pa, it is a fake cancellation. (I go with the family)

1- The first version of the * 1 S without grill (shorter distance between * and 1) was heavily damaged by 1920.

2- The second (a tiny longer distance between * and 1) was pretty new (couple of months) during the timely usage of these stamps by the end of october-November 1923.

3- Like others wrote, date is not good.

4- The numeral 1 is wrong and the * should be sharper.

Best regards

Hornet

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Valued Member
Romania
226 Posts
Posted 08/05/2020   02:20 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cupram to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you Hornet for your concrete remarks on obliteration.
I received the negative observation about the star from another collector.
I don't know anything about the distance between 1 and *.
The date numbers seem smaller than the other cancellations found on the "philastempel" site.
However, I also received a positive appreciation from a German collector.
It would be very helpful for me if you posted this type of genuine cancellation on the site.
Thank you again,
George
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Valued Member
173 Posts
Posted 08/05/2020   4:23 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hornet785 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi,

Others did great job too.

Remember, earliest known used for the "A" Perf is 27 Oct 1923 and for rouletted "B" 1st of November 1923.

This is a mimic of the second version which has the top point of the star in line with the junction of the bridge and bottom inner semi-circle.

First version the star was a bit to the right thus distance was shorter with the numeral 1.

Hope this help.

Hornet
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Valued Member
Romania
226 Posts
Posted 08/06/2020   2:31 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cupram to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I'm sorry but I didn't understand (English is not my native language)
A picture is worth a thousand words.
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Valued Member
United States
232 Posts
Posted 08/06/2020   4:43 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Germania to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
cupram, here is an image. The two postmarks were taken from the Stempeldatenbank on the stampsx site. I added the vertical green lines. In one style the star falls under the "A"; in the other the star falls under the "M".

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Valued Member
Romania
226 Posts
Posted 08/07/2020   12:50 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cupram to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Germania and Hornet.
Now it is very clear to me (with the 2 types of cancellation, before and after 1920).
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